How many parries are really used in foil?

[big daddy]

Lately Iv'e been thinking about how many parry skills are really used in foil. Everyone has a favorite parry but, in total how many parries does one use in combat?It seems to me that more is not always better.

[Allen Evans]

Which parries would you advocate giving up?

When I was fencing foil (and now, when I get new students rom other coaches) I found an enourmous number of fencers that could not protect their low lines. I usually hammered them with indirect attacks to 7 and 8. Second is still useful as a powerful parry and a set up to the flick. I see many fencers get utility out of parries 1 and 5 as a way to control the blade during infighting, which is occuring more and more. Parries 4 and 6 seem pretty necessary.

Hmmm....that leaves only 3 and 9. I will confess that I don't use, or teach 3 very much, except to my "B" and "A" fencers (as part of teaching flicks). I do teach 9 (some call it high 7) as a nice counter-riposte parry to almost everyone.

What's left?

Allen Evans

[RITFencing]

One more thing with 3....

Against an opposite handed fencer, taking in 3 and making an opposition riposte to flank works very well by sort of rolling the wrist, turning the hand from pronation to supination. I find that it works a bit better than 6 for this, because that turn is a more natural motion for the transfer and really helps get the tip right in there. This can be used in both foil and epee.

[big daddy]

Ok Allen, as usual good points. Yet with all of these parries in use wouldn't a student get a case of overload while deciding which parry to use?

[Insipiens]

Ok Allen, as usual good points. Yet with all of these parries in use wouldn't a student get a case of overload while deciding which parry to use?

You make it sound like each parry can be used against any attack.
As Allen's post implied, they each have different uses: septime and octave are low line parries and generally not very useful against high-line attacks - so I won't be considering them against high line attacks; if someone attacks to the low-line prime is not going to help me much as a first parry.

Even where I do have a choice of two parries for the same line (e.g. quarter or circular sixte) my "decision" may be semi-automatic (not necessarily a good thing): I may have a first choice parry but if that is not working I will need an alternative. If I always parry quarte my opponent will pretty soon start to disengage on attacks: so do I parry quarte then sixte? or just circular sixte? or quarte the counter of quarte? (presuming I am going to try and parry at all ) Most fencers have a preferred sequence that comes more naturally. But the better fencer will not be stuck with that or he will get caught out. Of course which I choose may depend on whether the opponent is right or left handed, on the line for my riposte, on what I did last time.

It is rarely a case of "deciding" more of going with what seems like the right move and being ready to get the hell out of there if it turns out not to be. But in any one situation if prime is a viable option then seconde is not likely to be; and if sixte is a viable option septime is not likely to be.

[Allen Evans]

Ok Allen, as usual good points. Yet with all of these parries in use wouldn't a student get a case of overload while deciding which parry to use?

No.



I don't find that to be a big issue. Most fencers parry the attack in the line it's made, with the appropriate parry. Better fencers do make choices in their parries, but they are usually controlling the line of the attack anyway.To be sure, this is the case only with very advanced fencers.

Confusion might come for a new student if the coach is not clear about the line of the attack, and does not clearly give the student a choice of the parry to use. (note that I'm not picking on anyone in particular here). If the coach gives the student a vague threat in the inside high line and tells the student that 4, or counter-6, or high 7 can be used at his/her discression, and allows any of those parry choices to succeed (even though one parry may be a better choice than another) then yes, when facing a real opponent, the student might "bobble" on the parry choice. Good coaching should prevent this, however.

Allen Evans

[Mr Epee]

One more thing with 3....

Against an opposite handed fencer, taking in 3 and making an opposition riposte to the flank works very well by sort of rolling the wrist, turning the hand from pronation to supination.

???

I don't understand.

How does this work?

[Allen Evans]

I believe that RIT is speaking of a sort of "bastard" croise on the outside line.

AE

[RITFencing]

I believe that RIT is speaking of a sort of "bastard" croise on the outside line.

AE

Yes, I'm describing this really poorly... I used to do this from 6, before a very high level foil coach showed me how he had his students do it from 3; the motion is much more natural.

I suppose it is a croise, yes, but I never really thought of it as such because instead of transfering and then making the hit, the transfer is done during the hit.

[Allen Evans]

I suppose it is a croise, yes, but I never really thought of it as such because instead of transfering and then making the hit, the transfer is done during the hit.

As should be in all the best croises....

AE

[Mr Epee]

Yes, I'm describing this really poorly... I used to do this from 6, before a very high level foil coach showed me how he had his students do it from 3; the motion is much more natural.

Ok, now I know what you're talking about. From what you described, I could only imagine an action that involved a breaking an elbow. Bad times.

I suppose it is a croise, yes, but I never really thought of it as such because instead of transfering and then making the hit, the transfer is done during the hit.

When you say hit, I assume you mean thrust, so with that in mind... technically I think the action could be classified as a filo.

[RITFencing]

When you say hit, I assume you mean thrust, so with that in mind... technically I think the action could be classified as a filo.

Now you're just making up words.

[noodle]

three -- distance parry, chest protector parry, and 1.

/kidding, mostly

[keith]

Now you're just making up words.

Never underestimate the contribution of the pastry to the pie.

[MdA]

...When I was fencing foil (and now, when I get new students rom other coaches) I found an enourmous number of fencers that could not protect their low lines. I usually hammered them with indirect attacks to 7 and 8. Second is still useful as a powerful parry and a set up to the flick. I see many fencers get utility out of parries 1 and 5 as a way to control the blade during infighting, which is occuring more and more. Parries 4 and 6 seem pretty necessary.

Hmmm....that leaves only 3 and 9. I will confess that I don't use, or teach 3 very much, except to my "B" and "A" fencers (as part of teaching flicks). I do teach 9 (some call it high 7) as a nice counter-riposte parry to almost everyone.

What's left?

Allen Evans

I pretty much agree with Allen's approach. I start with 4 and 6 for beginners and then add 8 and 7. For intermediates I add 1 and 2. Advanced flicking on opposite handers I add 3. Don't teach 5 much and never teach 9.

[MdA]

...
When you say hit, I assume you mean thrust, so with that in mind... technically I think the action could be classified as a filo.

I thought it is illegal to use a filo on your blade. Pretty fancy Italian term there...are you sure you don't mean a glide or coule?

[kuroutesshin]

I thought it is illegal to use a filo on your blade. Pretty fancy Italian term there...are you sure you don't mean a glide or coule?

Francophile! Or shall we call it a Gleistoß?

[darius]

I suppose it is a croise, yes, but I never really thought of it as such because instead of transfering and then making the hit, the transfer is done during the hit.

I like the transfer language myself; it's more descriptive to my anglophone ears. That'd be a semicircular transfer starting in 3.

To my eyes, the reason that it works so well is the same reason that circular parries followed by flicks, or heel-toe braking work so well; the momentum of one action carries you right into the next, so that it feels like one fluid motion.

darius

[Allen Evans]

Now you're just making up words.

In the Hungarian usage, I think this might be called "filo" (but I think Hungarians call every sliding blade contact a "filo", or at least it appears that way to me).

Mr. E is showing off his training on the continent.

AE

[jBirch]

...and in pastry I think it's properly "phyllo", though "filo" somehow mysteriously entered acceptable usage.

James.