Require USFA Membership for Beginners?

[Phrogger]

So our club is run somewhat by committee, now that our coach has retired. One of the members has taken it over and I support him completely. However, he is still reluctant to waive USFA membership for first-time (beginning) fencers.

I argue that it makes the cost too high for someone who just wants to "try out" fencing, and that we shouldn't require membership until later. Following the former coach's advice, he is concerned that lack of individual USFA insurance coverage could lead to some kind of lawsuit, so he requires it. Our cost structure is already very low ($40 annual membership fee + USFA membership), but we operate out of a public rec center and our membership is generally low to middle income. I feel we could raise our fees but keep prices low by only requiring USFA membership for those who stay past the beginning class. The club is a current USFA member club as well.

So do you require USFA membership for everyone, and what is your argument for doing so or not doing so?

Advice appreciated.

[Tyldak]

My club allows beginners to do 6 weeks without joining the USFA. You might want to call the club insurance company and talk to them about what is OK and not OK. When I talked to them, they said that as long as all of the principals (owners, staff, coaches) were members of the USFA, you were covered in-and-around all fencing activities, including parents and spectators who are not USFA members. During those 6 weeks beginners do not mix with advanced fencers, and they are kept on a short leash. After they learn some basics (after 3 or 4 classes) they can bout, but only with coach supervision. After 6 weeks, beginners who decide to stay and join the club and get into real fencing have to join the USFA.

If you have rigorous safety rules/standards that are applied to everyone, and you have the club insurance, and all of your staff are USFA members who have been trained to guard against safety hazards, you should be fine.

EDIT: USFA Insurance FAQ: http://www.usfencing.org/usfa/content/view/2101/137/

EDIT2: Speaking to the costs for beginners, yah, my club makes a real effort to keep costs for beginners very low to get them in the door. Trick is you gotta spend money at some point. If they are balking at $60/year for USFA membership, what about equipment? What about lessons? What about tournament fees? Unless you have a program which is specifically geared towards helping the financially-challenged, fencing is not for the faint-of-wallet.

[TBean]

If your only safety-net in terms of insurance is the USFA coverage and your club has no additional liability insurance - keep it as a requirement. If there is other coverage in place, then let them take a beginner class and then join.

[thekoby]

my college club does not require USFA membership for any of our members. Even though it is part of the university's recreation program, we are not covered by the university's insurance, so we have all members sign a waiver at the start of the year saying that Ball State and the fencing club can not be held responsible for any injuries that may happen at practice. We also have at least two members that are CPR certified at every practice.

Members of my club are allowed to fence as much as they want after paying the semester fees and if they wish to compete we require them to get a USFA membership (but front half the cost since college kids usually don't have a lot of money). It's just basically a way to keep people interested in fencing. If they have to pay a lot of money up front, then they really don't have the desire to spend MORE money later on to purchase their own equipment. Not charging the $50 fee really helps some people invest in their own equipment to continue fencing and choose at a later date if they really want to take it to the next level and compete.

[oiuyt]

I'm not sure you're aware of how little value such a waiver has.

Especially when signed by a beginner who can't evaluate the inherent risks of the activity.

And whether or not your activities are covered by Ball State's insurance company, I'm guessing BSU would be a named defendant in any lawsuit. Assuming, of course, that BSU has deeper pockets than you, as the coach, do.

As a coach you really want to be personally covered. Fortunately that's a membership benefit US Fencing offers to all coach members.

What do you mean "front half the cost"? Is it a loan? The club pays $30 as a grant? Something else? Where does the money to cover it if a grant come from? TANSTAAFL.

-B

[thekoby]

Here is a direct quote from the waiver itself:

Realizing that there is a risk inherent in any recreational activity, and in consideration of my being allowed to participate in this event, I personally assume all risks in connection with said event....I understand it is my responsibility to obtain helath insurance and not the responsibility of the State of Indiana or any of its agencies, including Ball State University.

As far as covering half the cost of USFA membership fees, since the club is small and not all the memebers compete, we pay half the fee out of the club's bank account. It is not a loan that they have to pay back in time. I guess you can view it as a grant since the club is just giving the money away. We do, however, stress that if they are going to get a USFA membership that they go to at least three tournaments per semester to make it worthwhile.

[Phrogger]

From what I understand, the individual USFA memberships only cover some medical expenses. Most of us who were injured while fencing will use our personal medical coverage for such things, so the only people who will really be affected would be those without medical insurance. The USFA membership won't prevent anyone from being sued, nor will club or coach membership prevent the coach, club, or facility from being sued for more than they are covered for. So isn't all this just 'feel-good' coverage to a certain extent?

[Tyldak]

I'm pretty sure any lawyer will tell you: Nothing can prevent you from being sued. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. I don't know about other states, but in Maryland people cannot sign away their right to sue anyone, even if they sign a piece of paper saying so. There are no guarantees in anything for being totally protected from litigation.

That said, there are lots of things you can do to reduce risk, up to and including:

1. get some kind of certification for all coaching/teaching staff (USFA, USFCA, whatever)

2. have all staff (coaching and administrative) take a first aid course and a clearly documented procedure for handling medical incidents

3. create an LLC for your club (limited liability corp - talk to a lawyer about this)

4. have a clearly established/publicized safety rules that are similar to USFA rules and make sure all club staff and club members know about them

5. call the insurance company that handles the club insurance program and ask them about what else can be done to reduce risk of litigation

[Philistine]

From what I understand, the individual USFA memberships only cover some medical expenses. Most of us who were injured while fencing will use our personal medical coverage for such things, so the only people who will really be affected would be those without medical insurance. The USFA membership won't prevent anyone from being sued, nor will club or coach membership prevent the coach, club, or facility from being sued for more than they are covered for. So isn't all this just 'feel-good' coverage to a certain extent?

For many cases--particularly relatively minor cases, the main difference between being insured for a club and coach and being not insured is who pays the lawyers.

Even a small case can cost thousands of dollars in legal fees, even if successfully defended (sometimes, especially if successfully defended). If there is no insurance, that money is coming out of your pocket.

Running a club or coaching without insurance (USFA or other) is not a good cost-benefit investment IMHO. AIUI, the cost is pretty reasonable.

OTOH, I don't see an insurance reason for requiring beginners to be USFA employees. AIUI, you're right that individual insurance is only for medical, and, at that, it's secondary (so that it'll be paid by general health insurance if someone has it). So, I don't think insurance issues are much of a reason to require it.

--Philistine

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Here is a direct quote from the waiver itself:

Realizing that there is a risk inherent in any recreational activity, and in consideration of my being allowed to participate in this event, I personally assume all risks in connection with said event....I understand it is my responsibility to obtain helath insurance and not the responsibility of the State of Indiana or any of its agencies, including Ball State University.

As far as covering half the cost of USFA membership fees, since the club is small and not all the memebers compete, we pay half the fee out of the club's bank account. It is not a loan that they have to pay back in time. I guess you can view it as a grant since the club is just giving the money away. We do, however, stress that if they are going to get a USFA membership that they go to at least three tournaments per semester to make it worthwhile.

So, to repeat Oiuyt, I'm not sure you're aware of how little value such a waiver has.

That particular waiver sounds like it's not useful for ANYTHING. At least with really well written and scary waivers, when they sue you, you can say "You were told that that might happen". With this one.... You've got nothing.

Waivers are useful for preventing some people from thinking they can sue you. But not anyone who has a friend or family member who's a lawyer. Or once knew someone who had a vague interest in law.

This may be enough risk/cost for your club, but it's worth about as much as trying a Jedi Mind Trick--- "I am not the person you want to sue".


Smith was fortunate enough to have an EMT on our team for a while--- THOSE are the people you really want to recruit....

[thekoby]

That particular waiver sounds like it's not useful for ANYTHING. At least with really well written and scary waivers, when they sue you, you can say "You were told that that might happen". With this one.... You've got nothing.

You're right that it doesn't stop them from sueing me, the club, or the university, but they sign their name and date it, agreeing that it is their responsibility to obtain medical insurance, so if they do happen to sue and claim that the club should have had insurance to cover in case something happened, we have it on file that they acknowledged the club did not have any type of insurance and it was their own stupid fault for getting hurt after we showed them how to SAFELY fence.

But I do like the Jedi mind trick

[VorpalCat]

[S]o if they do happen to sue and claim that the club should have had insurance to cover in case something happened, we have it on file that they acknowledged the club did not have any type of insurance and it was their own stupid fault for getting hurt after we showed them how to SAFELY fence.

You're still missing the point. Having that waiver on file means exactly nothing if the person decides to sue anyway. The judge is not going to look at the case, give the plaintiff a stern look, and tell them they signed a waiver so get the heck out of the court. Having that waiver on file is like having a written guarantee from your mechanic that your brakes will never fail. Maybe it will give you some comfort to read it one last time as your car goes sailing over the cliff railing but that's about it.

[kuroutesshin]

So then, what kind of waiver should they have? Something wherein the signer agrees not to prosecute the university or the club?

I'm curious because we have a similar waiver, one supported by our intramural sports organization, but if someone gets hurt I want to make sure our bases are covered.

[VorpalCat]

So then, what kind of waiver should they have? Something wherein the signer agrees not to prosecute the university or the club?

I'm curious because we have a similar waiver, one supported by our intramural sports organization, but if someone gets hurt I want to make sure our bases are covered.

Perhaps a more accurate phrasing of my first sentence would be, 'Having a waiver on file means exactly nothing if the person decides to sue anyway.' And the magic words are if the person decides to sue anyway. You still want to have everyone sign a waiver and you still want to keep them on file. (I have my club members sign a new one every fencing year, although that's mainly because the medical and emergency contact info is on the back side of it.) But relying solely on a waiver to protect you from lawsuits is just not realistic if the proverbial ship hits the sand.

[Phrogger]

I understand that a waiver is a pretty weak defense in case of a lawsuit. I also think a waiver couldn't hurt. We happen to have a full M.D. in our fencing club that doubles as medical for all our tournaments (ironically, he dislikes the waiver because he thinks it puts ideas in people's heads). But see, I don't think the USFA waiver holds any more weight than a waiver you draft yourself (or with the help of a lawyer.

So back to the original question, why add the extra $60 expense to a beginner's class? If say, you want to rival the price of the local soccer league and charge $50, the extra $60 brings it to $110. I want to keep the price at $50 (that we get to keep all of as revenue) and only require USFA membership for those that join the club for the year. Does your club require USFA membership for those who just want to "try it out?" For that matter, do you even have an organized (i.e. structured with a start and end date) beginners class?

[TodG]

A waiver will help if you are sued in small claims court. Once lawyers are involved, all bets are off.

[jjefferies]

Adding to the confusion, is there now a requirement that some percentage of a club's membershi must be USFA members as well for the club to be registered with the USFA?

[VorpalCat]

It's not a percentage and it's not new but there is a requirement that USFA-member clubs have at least ten USFA members who have declared that club on their membership. I understand that there is a process for clubs who do not have ten USFA members to get a waiver from USFA for this requirement. The difference this year is that clubs are being asked to submit a list of those fencers' names along with the enrollment form.

In the past I've offered a discount on club membership for USFA members to help encourage non-competitors or those indecisive about competing to go ahead and sign up, just to help my small club meet that minimum.

[KD5MDK]

Adding to the confusion, is there now a requirement that some percentage of a club's membershi must be USFA members as well for the club to be registered with the USFA?

The requirement for each club to have 10 members is reasonably long standing and makes good sense. For example, we currently have NYAC and NYAC II.* Now, imagine a club owner with more ambition than politeness and a Division policy that each club got to host a tournament. Could you imagine NYAC III-LII? If you paid enough registration fees, you could lay claim to every
weekend in a year...


* For a completely different reason.

[Phrogger]

Hmm, I was unaware of this requirement. It does change the argument a bit. I think our club core is just barely 10 fencers, though, so we could still potentially get away with not requiring noobs to sign up for the USFA.

I'm still hoping for examples of whether YOUR club does/doesn't require USFA membership for complete beginners who just want to try fencing.