What is the path to the Olympics?

[black card]

I ask this out of sheer curiosity. Trust me I have no delusions. The main reason is that even though I have spent a great deal of time in this sport and talked to coaches and athletes of many different levels, I have never really gotten a straight answer. So, those of you out there with the knowledge: can you enlighten us?

For ease of communication, please describe one or more of the pathways by which a beginning fencer who picks up the sport can eventually ascend to the Olympic level.

(short answer - win)

[HDG]

Sweat, pain and $$$$$$$

[keith]

Originally Posted by black card

I ask this out of sheer curiosity. Trust me I have no delusions. The main reason is that even though I have spent a great deal of time in this sport and talked to coaches and athletes of many different levels, I have never really gotten a straight answer. So, those of you out there with the knowledge: can you enlighten us?

For ease of communication, please describe one or more of the pathways by which a beginning fencer who picks up the sport can eventually ascend to the Olympic level.

(short answer - win)

The qualification paths differ by geographical region. So how about;

Be a moderately talented american, or a very talented european.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by black card

For ease of communication, please describe one or more of the pathways by which a beginning fencer who picks up the sport can eventually ascend to the Olympic level

It's not too complicated. Basically, teams and individuals qualify based on a rolling points systems. The fencers and teams earn points at world cup events (and, for U.S. fencers, some required NACs). If you're 1st on the FIE points list, you're in the individual event. If you're 9th or 10th, you may or may not be, depending on who else qualified already from your zone.

More details in these articles:

• Information on team qualification for 2008 Olympics
• Information on individual qualification for 2008 Olympics

The Athlete's Handbook on the USFA site also has a lot of details about how the US fencers and the US teams for various world cup events are selected.

So, for a beginner, improve to the point where you are earning senior points at Div 1 events. (In the mean time, you could be working for points in your age group. I believe that many of our Olympians have been members of the US Junior team at some point.) Once you're good enough to make points consistently at Div 1 NACs, you need to be looking at World Cups.

Most fencers never earn senior points, much less earning enough points consistently enough to move up the points list and be in contention for a spot on the U.S. team. The details aren't hidden. It's just that most people don't need to know the details since they're kind of stuck at the "get good enough to earn points at Div 1 NACs consistently" step in this process.

It's similar to a junior high student asking about the details for earning a Ph.D. A good first step is getting good grades, graduating from high school, and doing well at college. We could tell him about prelims, dissertations, and the defense, but those details don't really matter until he's further along in the process.

[nyacfencing]

The path to becoming an Olympic fencer is generally as follows:

1. Start Young

Elementary or middle school is ideal, high school is getting a little late. Once upon a time you could start in college and make it, but these days the odds are heavily against you. One extremely prominent coach told me that if a fencer isn't already fairly accomplished coming into college (think top 16 on the junior point list), then it is unlikely they will ever become elite.

2. Go To A Top Fencing University

Your college years are critical for training and actualizing potential. You need to attend a Division 1 NCAA school with a top coach. Bonus points for attending a school in, or in easy commuting proximity to, Manhattan where you can also gain extra experience training at the Clubs. If you do and you are a poor minority, also consider getting into the Peter Westbrook foundation.

3. Go to the Talent

If, after college, you don't live in either New York or certain parts of the west coast (depending on your weapon), you are pretty much done. Figure out where the talent and top coaches for your weapon live and train, and live and train there. Beg until your knees bleed for lessons from the top coach and go out of your way to prove your serious training commitment. Bonus: Get into the US Air Force's "World Class Athlete Program" (WCAP).

4. Go to NACs and, if possible, World Cups

And, when you lose, stick around to watch the top fencers through the finals. These are excellent learning opportunities that many pass on to their own detriment.

5. Never Give Up

Listen to Tim Morehouse in the NBC video. He states that there were plenty of more talented fencers, but none that worked as hard as he did.

[KD5MDK]

If you are Becca Ward or Garek Meinhardt, you can skip the NCAA part.

[black card]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

If you are Becca Ward or Garek Meinhardt, you can skip the NCAA part.

from what i can tell, getting to the olympic level in WS involves beating 6 or 7 people

[Craig]

Originally Posted by black card

from what i can tell, getting to the olympic level in WS involves beating 6 or 7 people

on a consistent basis and after you have logged thousands of hours training and the ability to defeat any of the hundreds of fencers who are a skill level below those "6 or 7 people"

Also add 15 to 20k per year (minimum) for training, travel, etc.

[Neinteen]

Originally Posted by HDG

$$$$$$$

QFT. It's all about how much money you can put down. Age might be a part, but less important, if you're really too old, you can donate to the "Make Neinteen an Olympian" fundraiser, which needs about a million dollars.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

2. Go To A Top Fencing University

Your college years are critical for training and actualizing potential. You need to attend a Division 1 NCAA school with a top coach. Bonus points for attending a school in, or in easy commuting proximity to, Manhattan where you can also gain extra experience training at the Clubs. If you do and you are a poor minority, also consider getting into the Peter Westbrook foundation.

I think it is debatable as to whether attending a Div I fencing school helps or hinders a fencers' road to the Olympics.

Yes, you may be able to train with excellent fencers but due to attending school, unless those fencers are actually at the school, you may not have the time and/or money to be able to travel and train.

You will also need a lot of self funding. The USFA isn't going to help you until you have results. As for university funding, they sometimes can even help but maybe not since the NCAA has very prohibitive rules about accepting money. Note in another thread, although Mariel Zagunis will be going to Notre Dame, she will not be fencing NCAA because she has accepted endorsement money.

Depending on the school, the academics can be extremely rigorous. USFA national events can be on Fridays and Mondays, not just on the weekends, and often in difficult to travel to locations, so even more school days may have to be missed.

Not all domestic and international events are scheduled around NCAA events, school exams and holidays. For example, this year the Jan. Div I/Jr NAC, with some Div I events scheduled on Friday and Monday, is in the middle of some university exams.

So one could argue, if you want to make the Olympics, forget about the NCAA, get whatever funding you can and for that matter maybe put off school altogether for a few years. (Oh yeah, and unless you are top 4 on the US senior points list, you will have to find and fund your own health coverage.)

Then again, put your Olympic dreams on hold while you fence NCAA, get a good education and then move to Europe for a couple of years to follow your dream.

Or you can go to the Olympics after high school before University, like Becca and Gerek.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

when you lose, stick around to watch the top fencers through the finals. These are excellent learning opportunities that many pass on to their own detriment.

This can't be repeated enough.

[DHCJr]

The answer above are correct for getting to the World Championship, not to the Olympics.

Top 8 on the FIE point standing are Automatic, unless there are too many from your country. (If there is a team event, each country can send 3 fencers. If not, only 2.

Next there are the regional championship. Each region is allocated so many slots.

If the country qualifies a team, they get to add fencers up to a maximum of 3 total.

The host country get to add 8 fencers and they can allocate them in any way they want.

If there are any spots left, they are allocated base on top down.

Murial, only got to the 2004 Olympics, even though she was in the top 8 because the slot allocated to Africa was turned down. The country of the fencer who was to go, stated they would not send her. Her ranking was not even in the top 100, but Africa gets at least one for diversity as required by the IOC.

That was for individuals.

The top 4 teams are qualified and the other 4 are allocated based on each region gets at least 1, if they want it.

This was long because it is not just the top 32 (or 24 for non-team events.)

[nyacfencing]

Originally Posted by teacup

I think it is debatable as to whether attending a Div I fencing school helps or hinders a fencers road to the Olympics.

...

So one could argue, if you want to make the Olympics, forget about the NCAA, get whatever funding you can and for that matter maybe put off school altogether for a few years.)

Sorry, but the facts disagree with you. Of the 15 US Olympians this year, 14 either attended, are attending, or will be attending a Division 1 school (Tim Morehouse attended Division 3 Brandeis). Additionally, 14 of the 15 Olympians attended schools east of the Mississippi (Seth Kelsey attended the Air Force Academy in Colorado), and 13 of those 14 were in the Midwest or Northeast (Rebecca Ward will be attending Duke in North Carolina).

Please consider the following reference information. For those in high school or younger, I strongly advise you to be acutely aware of the caliber of schools on this list (e.g. study really hard):

Columbia (New York City)
Erin Smart
James Williams

St Johns (New York City)
Keeth Smart
Dagmara Wozniak

Notre Dame (Indiana)
Gerek Meinhardt (incoming)
Kelley Hurley
Mariel Zagunis

Ohio State (Ohio)
Jason Rogers
Hanna Thompson

Yale (Connecticut)
Sada Jacobson

Harvard (Massachusetts)
Emily Cross

Penn State (Pennsylvania)
Doris Willette

Duke (North Carolina)
Rebecca Ward (incoming)

Air Force Academy (Colorado)
Seth Kelsey

Brandeis (Massachusetts)
Timothy Morehouse

[yowsers]

Champions are born, and fortunate to find coaches that don't screw them up.

In the USA, having a lot of money (i.e., wealthy parents) does not hurt, either.

[teacup]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

Sorry, but the facts disagree with you. Of the 15 US Olympians this year, 14 either attended, are attending, or will be attending a Division 1 school (Tim Morehouse attended Division 3 Brandeis). Additionally, 14 of the 15 Olympians attended schools east of the Mississippi (Seth Kelsey attended the Air Force Academy in Colorado), and 13 of those 14 were in the Midwest or Northeast (Rebecca Ward will be attending Duke in North Carolina).

Please consider the following reference information. For those in high school or younger, I strongly advise you to be acutely aware of the caliber of schools on this list (e.g. study really hard)....

I did state it was debatable.

And as you point out, some on that list are not at university yet, some have finished and some took a leave of absence. Only one or two were full time students at college last year .

Which is part of the point, I am not saying that many of the Olympians haven't attended fencing universities but it is difficult to attend a NCAA Div I school and at the same time try to make the Olympics or even a national team. People only have so much time and money. While there are examples of fencers who have made teams while at college, there are also fencers who have given up fencing or fence less because they found it challenging to attend university, fence NCAA, international and domestic events all at the same time.

(To help financially enable athletes to reach the Olympics, it would be great if the NCAA was less restrictive regarding funding. This applies to all the other less mainstream sports besides just fencing. In fact, the NCAA money restriction is a reason NOT to fence NCAA. Again look at Zagunis.)

Bottom line, it takes a great deal of talent, commitment, money and a small element of luck to get to the Olympics in fencing or any sport.

[KD5MDK]

Sorry, but the facts disagree with you. Of the 15 US Olympians this year, 14 either attended, are attending, or will be attending a Division 1 school (Tim Morehouse attended Division 3 Brandeis).

Right, but what does "X fencer will be attending a school" tell us about how to get to the Olympics? They've obviously already gotten there without NCAA helping at all.

[rory]

Correlation does not imply causality.

In fact, I'd be tempted to suggest that the number of top level fencers who are also top university students is because they're intelligent, hard working and determined - if any of them chose to be street sweepers, they'd probably be the best street sweepers around!

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by black card

What is the path to the Olympics?

Take the path to Carnegie Hall and keep going for a bit.

-B

[Inquartata]

And try to hold your breath walking across the Atlantic. Unless you're Jesus.