Improving Refereeing

[Timberwolf_CY]

Quick question, I didn't want to do a search for this, cause it would probably take years to sort through.

Can someone give me some good sites, places, etc., that I can read to help improve my refereeing?

I know there is a particular site-article out there somewhere on the Internets, but I failed to put it in my favorites, so I've lost it.

And yes I know, read the rulebook. I'm waiting for the new one to come out before I start to study hardcore. Speaking of which, I am going to check the USFA site after I post this to see if there's anything new.

I'm planning on attending the referee clinic in KC this October, and I figure it would be better to start preparing now than later.

I'm really just looking for stuff to read and references and so on. I've been reading one of the other poster's (can't remember his name) "Coaching Compendium" lately, which has been very good. Whatever you can give me would be great. I'm not asking for you to post advice here and baby sit me, just point me where to go so I can educate myself and not be a hassle to you guys.

Advice is always welcome though, of course.

Thanks.

[Timberwolf_CY]

Okay, I found that refereeing document I was talking about, after surfing through the USFA website and then the Fencing Officials website...it's the Referee's Manual...only it's from 2005...is there something more recent?

[Guymelef]

The referee manual and study guide is a good start. The test has not changed since 2005 and some of the questions are confusingly written.

There is no answer key, you are to make that yourself. I would go through, open book, and choose your answers. Don't just write put down A or B or C, write down the pertinent rule to support your answer.

I would then find a local certified ref and pick his or her brain. Ask about anything that still makes you quizzical.

[KD5MDK]

Can you tell who the good referees in your area are? Watch them and see what they do.

[HDG]

Someone posted a rather large refereeing document from the FIE a while back, but I can't get the PDF to upload… Does anybody else have it? It's the one with the annoying smiley face giving thumbs up and thumbs down.

[KD5MDK]

I wouldn't trust it. Much better to have feedback from a real person, who can answer your questions and clarify the topic.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I wouldn't trust it. Much better to have feedback from a real person, who can answer your questions and clarify the topic.

Of course that's better, but that doesn't mean that the FIE document isn't informative.

[Timberwolf_CY]

Finding people to study with in my area is going to be astronomically hard, I think...I can't think of a single person in St. Louis who is a certified ref. I could be wrong however, and I just need to seek them out. I am going to take a long crack at the study guide and rules first though.

I have read the Referee Handbook in it's entirety...very informative.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf_CY

Finding people to study with in my area is going to be astronomically hard, I think...I can't think of a single person in St. Louis who is a certified ref.

http://foc.askfred.net/Referee/index...&submit=Search

I could be wrong however, and I just need to seek them out. I am going to take a long crack at the study guide and rules first though.

I have read the Referee Handbook in it's entirety...very informative.

Does your Division ever bring in Clint Smith, Judith Offerle or Fernando DelGado? (to grab some names I know are active in Illinois)

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf_CY

And yes I know, read the rulebook. I'm waiting for the new one to come out before I start to study hardcore.

I wouldn't wait for a new revision to start studying the rule book - new revisions sometimes aren't posted until October or November (now that I've said that watch this be one of those years when the new revision is posted in early September). Any changes should also be covered at the clinic.

You may also want to keep an eye on the FOC web site - it seems like new revisions are often available there long before they come up on USFA web site.

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by HDG

Someone posted a rather large refereeing document from the FIE a while back, but I can't get the PDF to upload… Does anybody else have it? It's the one with the annoying smiley face giving thumbs up and thumbs down.

I posted a link to the document that was then removed from the FIE website after a short time.

Like the Saber Arbitrage DVD I think it was an Arthur Cramer project that was not "official".

The material looks OK though although it includes at least one interpretation (or clarification) was pending; the termination of the foil attack with the leading foot landing at the end of a lunge.

Also I am not sure that he had rights (as in copyrights) to use some of the included photos.

[KD5MDK]

The thing about FIE documents is that they're aimed at a totally different level. Leaving aside whether or not it's blessed or true, the people who are expected to read it come from a very different mindset than someone who is beginning to referee. It's best for people who are starting out to focus on resources aimed at their level, or which understand where they're coming from. Which is why I'm pushing personal contact, because someone who can see where you are and give you tailored feedback.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

The thing about FIE documents is that they're aimed at a totally different level. Leaving aside whether or not it's blessed or true, the people who are expected to read it come from a very different mindset than someone who is beginning to referee. It's best for people who are starting out to focus on resources aimed at their level, or which understand where they're coming from. Which is why I'm pushing personal contact, because someone who can see where you are and give you tailored feedback.

I don't disagree, except that this document wasn't pitched at a high level. It had still shots of things like fencer with socks down = frowny face; proper en garde = smiley face; coming en garde w/ PIL = frowny face, etc. with arrows pointing to the problem and citations from the rule book.

[yowsers]

How to learn to referee:

Watch hours and hours of fencing video over and over again.

Accept constructive criticism from everyone.

Ask questions.

Prepare to be wrong and try to learn from the unending mistakes that one makes when refereeing.

[KD5MDK]

And listen to people like yowsers.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by HDG

I don't disagree, except that this document wasn't pitched at a high level. It had still shots of things like fencer with socks down = frowny face; proper en garde = smiley face; coming en garde w/ PIL = frowny face, etc. with arrows pointing to the problem and citations from the rule book.

Appearances can be deceiving. It was the same document we were taught from for our FIE exams. I would also say that without the correct commentary some of the concepts are less than clear.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by yowsers

How to learn to referee:

Refereee hours and hours of fencing over and over again.

Accept constructive criticism from everyone.

Ask questions.

Prepare to be wrong and try to learn from the unending mistakes that one makes when refereeing.

Fixed. I never saw a fencing video until I'd been refereeing nationally and first moved to the UK. There is no substitute for piste time at increasing levels of difficulty.

[yowsers]

Yeah, that's right. Referee as much as possible. But, if you live in "the sticks" like I do, you don't get to see high level fencing (and refereeing) very often, so your only chance to really learn is to watch video.

That said, I am going to be watching a lot of (free! live!) Olympic video before refereeing my next competition.

/back in my day, we had to wait 3+ years before we could watch only the finals of the Olympics on crappy VHS tape.

[KD5MDK]

I'd say there's a big difference in between what you're seeing when you watch video and what a brand new trainee sees. The questions of "What just happened, what rules and conventions are applied, and how do you call it" are not at all obvious when you're just starting, and you need a lot of guidance and immediate feedback there. This is especially true because of the divergence between coaching terminology and refereeing. When a coach is yelling at his fencer "More preparation, more preparation!", it doesn't mean my next call is supposed to be "Incorrect action. Attack left.", it could be a lot of other things.

[KD5MDK]

I didn't want to do a search for this

Do a search for posts by:
Greg_D
Bolliver
Damon_Scaggs

DJ Apostrophe
IanSerotkin
epeemike81
yowsers

oiuyt

There's a lot of accumulated refereeing experience in those posts, and I'm sure I've forgotten many more.