Improving Refereeing

[HDG]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Do a search for posts by:
Greg_D
Bolliver
Damon_Scaggs

DJ Apostrophe
IanSerotkin
epeemike81
yowsers

oiuyt

There's a lot of accumulated refereeing experience in those posts, and I'm sure I've forgotten many more.

Just one "L" for Boliver

[yowsers]

I'd be embarrassed to think that people would look for my posts on Fencing.net hoping to garner some wisdom about refereeing.

A brand new referee might not understand what they are seeing when they watch the Olympics. Watching the best fencers and referees in the world can't hurt, though!

[KD5MDK]

I just went back and skimmed them all and I'd have nothing to worry about there. You need a little more confidence that you know what you're talking about.

Perhaps some of the difference is that I'm coming from a primarily epee refereeing perspective, where massive amounts of the training are "Have confidence", "Always do it in this order so you don't miss X" and "Watch out for Y happening". The amount of video you'd have to watch (especially at Olympics, WCs etc where equipment control is all done off-camera) is staggering compared to the amount of foil or sabre you'd need to pickup how people are fencing them.

[Timberwolf_CY]

Yeah, I've been watching a lot of the women's Olympic saber...I get most (key word most, ie. a majority, not a huge amount) of the calls "right" what the director says or what the video replay reveals. What I'm having a tough time understanding right now as far as the saber goes is the counter-attacks. There are many times where one fencer will advance, advance, advance, weapon down, threatening, but not extending, and the retreating fencer will, to me make an attack in prep and score...only the...god..."play-by-play" announcer (Mikhail? He sounds American) says it's a counter-attack. He's done this like ten times in all the WS I've watched for the Olympics so far? I would love to have that question/brain-pique answered.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement so far. Regarding the St. Louis refs, I recognized two off the top of my head, however they don't fence at my club...I have no idea where they fence...I'm assuming Gateway, which is bad...one I think is a WashU fencer, but they usually come to our club (Academy) during the summer...but I haven't seen him at any rate...however I think he may have gotten a fencing scholarship to another out-of-town/state university, but I can't recall for sure.

Anyway, thanks again for all the advice, I do appreciate it. Any information is helpful.

[yowsers]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I just went back and skimmed them all and I'd have nothing to worry about there. You need a little more confidence that you know what you're talking about.

Wow, I hope that didn't take very long. The advice about epee refereeing that has stuck with me is "start out perfect and get better."

Timberwolf_CY, firstly I would ignore the commentary on the televised fencing. It was awful. You're in good company about being confused about attacks vs. counterattacks. The experts in the sport are in constant disagreement about these fine points, which is partly (as I understand) why the timing one the box was shortened so drastically. When it comes down to it, such decisions are partly training and experience but primarily a "gut' instinct (of course, you can retrain your gut).

The solution (in jest) that I had a number of years ago was to have 7 Russian (Ukrainian, whatever) saber coaches watch the bout and, after each double-touch, vote "touch right" or "touch left" with majority rule. Today, I remembered this and realized that with the video-challenge in the Olympics, this solution has come to pass, in a manner of speaking.

[bigdawg2121]

Also, Mikhail just doesn't seem to like the concept of AiP. It might be the era he comes from but even when he's parsing the action as "preparation from this side, _____ from that one" he says counterattack. Never attack.

[KD5MDK]

Wow, I hope that didn't take very long.

You had 54 posts at the time. If you do the "find more posts by this user" it takes I think a page and a half or so, with just the first line or two showing from each post. That's all I looked at.

The advice about epee refereeing that has stuck with me is "start out perfect and get better."

Yeah, pretty much.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by downunder

Fixed. I never saw a fencing video until I'd been refereeing nationally and first moved to the UK. There is no substitute for piste time at increasing levels of difficulty.

Hmm. Every good referee I know swears by the utility of watching videos...

Anyway, what does it mean when I am watching videos, I make a call mentally and then the referee awards the touch to the other fencer---but when a call is reviewed and the ref is reversed it is almost always turning out to be what I called it?

[yowsers]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Anyway, what does it mean when I am watching videos, I make a call mentally and then the referee awards the touch to the other fencer---but when a call is reviewed and the ref is reversed it is almost always turning out to be what I called it?

I had the same experience. But, then, I am making the call in the comfort of my home without 100s of screaming fans and angry coaches/fencers.

That brings us to our next way to become a better referee. Get used to keeping your cool under increasing amounts of pressure (i.e., 5 different saber coaches, their fencers, and the fencers parents and antagonizing every call that you make). I don't think I'll ever get that part down.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by yowsers

That brings us to our next way to become a better referee. Get used to keeping your cool under increasing amounts of pressure (i.e., 5 different saber coaches, their fencers, and the fencers parents and antagonizing every call that you make). I don't think I'll ever get that part down.

The one I have trouble with that's related to this: getting past / shaking off a blown call -- or even making it look like I have…

[KD5MDK]

I have found it very helpful to portray a bit of polite boredom[1] when refereeing epee. Things really start getting bad when you get tense and appear that this is actually hard.


[1] "I'm paying attention, but this isn't exciting." You should never appear to not be paying attention.

[Insipiens]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I have found it very helpful to portray a bit of polite boredom[1] when refereeing epee. <snip>

I am guessing the polite bit is the harder

[Timberwolf_CY]

Yeah, I can usually act well under pressure...whether I turn red or not and start shivering uncontrollably (hyperactivity, I think it may be the bi-polar, but I'm not sure) is another matter entirely. I'm used to people picking on me though, they'll see the cards flying if they start harassing me about that stuff, since arguing seems to be frowned upon by the Referee's Handbook. I did ref, last winter, a youth 10-12 tourney (only like 8 of them, but I did almost the entire thing myself). It was a "beginner's tourney," - no electric gear, all dry, with judges and all. At one point one kid hit the other, and it was a point (just inside the seam of the arm), and when I called the touch, one of the parents, who I had been watching for some time because he was visibly getting more and more angry, finally acted on his anger. He stood up in the bleachers, and shouted, while pointing at his torso "THIS IS TARGET!"...at first I didn't know what to say, then I pulled a line from my step-dad's book and answered with an equally arrogant, ignorant, "WHAT?!?!" He sat down and shut up after that. I had no further complaints, neither from him nor any of the coaches nor the organizers, and in fact he and his kid's coach helped me out with some tips popping off the weapons about 20 minutes after that, which I thanked him for. I try to remain professional under pressure, but I've found that reverse stupidity to be particularly effective in countering said stupidity...it just has to be done right. I probably wouldn't have done that with someone more on my level or higher, but I suppose I'll learn more about that kind of stuff at the seminar. Anywho...

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by yowsers

I had the same experience. But, then, I am making the call in the comfort of my home without 100s of screaming fans and angry coaches/fencers.

Indeed.

That brings us to our next way to become a better referee. Get used to keeping your cool under increasing amounts of pressure (i.e., 5 different saber coaches, their fencers, and the fencers parents and antagonizing every call that you make). I don't think I'll ever get that part down.

And THAT's where Downunder's advice gets really valuable.