Neuton Rating of... Denim?!?!

[Mustache Wax]

My fencing buddy and I are quite prone to fencing in the local city park. Despite the gauking staring from local onlookers; the fresh air, trees and grass add a certain element to the dueling atmosphere.

I refuse to fence in nothing less than full kit. I suppose I am one of the few fencers who doesn't mind, even enjoy, wearing knickers even during "practice". To me it just doesn't feel right fencing in anything else and I personally despise track pants/sweat pants. Regardless, my fencing buddy is on the opposite side of the scale and refuses to wear knickers, barring perhaps in competition... He insists that the ultimate fencing pants are..you guessed it...denim jeans. And even if I disagree, I must give him credit because his skill is not lacking in the least because of it.

I digress....other than spawning sarcastic remarks from me, it brought up the question: What is the newton rating of denim?. We decided if anyone already had this eclectic bit of knowledge or perhaps the equipment/ability to find out, it would be on this, the most prestigious of fencing formus, fencing.net.


So does anyone know? Thoughts? If not I thought it to be a humorous fencing anecdote at the least.

[erooMynohtnA]

It's Newton, like the guy, Sir Isaac.

There are uniforms made with white cotton denim, so it's not like no one ever fences in it. I don't know the rating, but the material is "sufficiently robust."

I question the expertise of anyone who fences in jeans. That is to say, they have no idea what they're talking about.

[mrbiggs]

For safety, I'd be surprised if they were very puncture resistant. To be completely honest I have absolutely no idea, but I'd be surprised.

In any case, you can't move in jeans. I don't know how he even does it. I fence in knickers or sports pants.

Honestly, not wearing knickers isn't THAT much of a concern, whether you substitute them with something robust or not. Worst case scenario is that one of you breaks a blade and it goes through the other's leg.

[erooMynohtnA]

...and severs the femoral artery and you bleed to death.

But that's not going to happen.

[mrbiggs]

...and severs the femoral artery and you bleed to death.

But that's not going to happen.

There's severing the femoral artery, and then there's having to pass up the comfort of jeans for knickers. Obviously there's a price to pay, but I think it's entirely worth it to be able to fence in a material that was really designed for the sport (denim).

[Gav]

I question the expertise of anyone who fences in jeans. That is to say, they have no idea what they're talking about.

Agreed. The question is why?

Mr biggs sums it up further down:

In any case, you can't move in jeans. I don't know how he even does it. I fence in knickers or sports pants.

And I am in total agreement with this:

Honestly, not wearing knickers isn't THAT much of a concern, whether you substitute them with something robust or not. Worst case scenario is that one of you breaks a blade and it goes through the other's leg.

Everytime I read comments about "safety" my eyes roll.

[Barry Paul]

Standard Jean Denim has a resistance to penetration using the official testing procedure of about 150 to 200 Newton against the minimum requirement in Europe of 350 Newton. If it is a stretch denim the protection drops to 100 to 175 Newtons.

[finnfence]

Tensile strength of denim depends on the amount of stretch fibers like elastane in it. The less stretchy, the better from the safety standpoint. This article here says that low-stretch denim rates about 580 N. http://www.fibtex.lodz.pl/66_17_63.pdf, see page 66 for the tensile strength chart. (To Barry's point, though, this is not a test done with fencing in mind, nor is it necessarily done with the weight of cloth used for jeans. I'm sure Barry is right about the strength of standard jeans material compared to kevlar uniforms using the FIE-approved test procedures.)

Anecdotally I can say that I've never gotten stabbed through my jeans, but then I don't wear them fencing or when likely to get stabbed by anything more serious than a thistle.

Manufacturers of sofa slipcovers typically test the fabric using a so-called 50-pound ball burst test, and the denim they use passes it. (This is probably not a test your friend will want to be trying personally, though.)

The SCA might offer more practical experience for your purposes

Apparently they have to test their clothing (see here, under the drop test bit): http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/...r_handbook.pdf

The cloth has to pass a test in which 1.5 joules is delivered to the fabric, or alternatively only the top layer of multi-layer fabrics is fully penetrated when a husky guy stabs it four times with increasing force, using a broken foil blade.

According to at least one guy (http://kelly.dwarfworks.com/sca/armor/), it takes two layers of denim to pass. He's talking about denim that is heavy - like that used for jeans jackets. No guarantees if your friend goes for low-rise lycra.

So for total safety, maybe your friend might want to wear at least two pairs of jeans. He could even opt for the ultimate in jeans safety, here: http://workingperson.com/products/66...ns_PEJ4DW.html

[LTranter]

In any case, you can't move in jeans. I don't know how he even does it. I fence in knickers or sports pants.

Depends on the jeans and the fit. My son goes to practice in jeans from time to time, and is not limited at all by his movement. He usually wears a loose fit, not fall off your butt loose, but comfortable around the waist loose. If he is not going to wear knickers, I think the jeans are safer than sweats or workout pants.

L

[rory]

I try to avoid wearing knickers when I fence - my wife doesn't like me borrowing them, and I find the lace itchy.

I much prefer to wear boxers under my breeches.

[Zilverzmurfen]

I suppose I am one of the few fencers who doesn't mind, even enjoy, wearing knickers even during "practice".

When else would you wear your kit if not when fencing?!

[Fencergrl]

So for total safety, maybe your friend might want to wear at least two pairs of jeans. He could even opt for the ultimate in jeans safety, here: http://workingperson.com/products/66...ns_PEJ4DW.html

The jeans (in the link) have the added protection against flaming bagels.

Protect yourself against potential hazards by working in jeans that will keep you safe against loose flames,

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

I refuse to fence in nothing less than full kit.

I'm quite certain that this sentence confuses me.

[LTranter]

I'm quite certain that this sentence confuses me.

I'm with you. When I here 'kit' of think of things that deal with small parts, glue and paint, or maybe a needle and various colored threads, but, hey, at least he didn't say he refuses to fence in anything other than a full kilt.

L

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

I'm with you. When I here 'kit' of think of things that deal with small parts, glue and paint, or maybe a needle and various colored threads, but, hey, at least he didn't say he refuses to fence in anything other than a full kilt.

L

The part which confuses me is that he refuses to fence in nothing less than full kit.

[Fechter1]

There's severing the femoral artery, and then there's having to pass up the comfort of jeans for knickers. Obviously there's a price to pay, but I think it's entirely worth it to be able to fence in a material that was really designed for the sport (denim).

Wait wait wait... You're saying that jeans are more comfortable than fencing knickers? I would say (from personal experience) that it would be the other way 'round, especially in the more extreme positions (deep guard, lunges), where knickers give me more freedom to move. Then again, maybe I just haven't found the right jeans yet...

For the record, I never fence in anything less than full gear. I might take lessons in less, but never fence.

$.02

[rory]

Lessons - t-shirt, shorts, glove, mask.

Any other fencing - jacket, underplastron, breeches, socks pulled up, glove, mask

[erik_blank]

One thing that noe one else has mentioned is the fact that Jeans (and many sweat pants) have build in blade catchers called pockets. All we need is to have some one do a deep lunge into someones pocket and then have the blade point snap in there. At that point the 'victim' has nothing but a worn out pocket to prevent the blade from going on into the thigh and associated bad places nearby. Nasty.
On this bit alone, I urge all of my fencers to not wear jeans or other pants that have pockets to practice.

As for Rory: I urge you to practice in more than just a tshirt and shorts. Yes, itis practice, but accidents can happen at any time, and since there is usually more time spent in practice than in actual competition, the chances of getting injured in practice are actuallyhigher than in an actual competition. Additionaly, if you are not used to working in a "full Kit" then you will not be used to the limitations of Knickers, plastron and jacket when it comes time to actually compete. We have the equipment people, lets use it!

[LTranter]

The part which confuses me is that he refuses to fence in nothing less than full kit.

Maybe this is his motto:
IMG_2628.jpg

[HDG]

One thing that noe one else has mentioned is the fact that Jeans (and many sweat pants) have build in blade catchers called pockets. All we need is to have some one do a deep lunge into someones pocket and then have the blade point snap in there. At that point the 'victim' has nothing but a worn out pocket to prevent the blade from going on into the thigh and associated bad places nearby. Nasty.
On this bit alone, I urge all of my fencers to not wear jeans or other pants that have pockets to practice.

As for Rory: I urge you to practice in more than just a tshirt and shorts. Yes, itis practice, but accidents can happen at any time, and since there is usually more time spent in practice than in actual competition, the chances of getting injured in practice are actuallyhigher than in an actual competition. Additionaly, if you are not used to working in a "full Kit" then you will not be used to the limitations of Knickers, plastron and jacket when it comes time to actually compete. We have the equipment people, lets use it!

Two things:
Pockets are generally oriented in such a way that the openings face away from the opponent (like the coverings on the zippers of jackets & lames).

Rory is only taking lessons that way, he didn't say anything about drilling, practice bouts, etc.