08-06-2008, 05:35 AM
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#1 | | Member
Join Date: May 2008 Location: Australia
Posts: 42
| Fencing Tactics
Every now and then I hear someone mention that someone does or doesn't have a grasp of fencing tactics. (Sadly, I think I'm one of the latter...)
What kind of tactics are there in fencing? Would this just refer to, for example, consciously using a 1-2 against someone who always parrys quarte, i.e. basically using your opponent's weaknesses against them? Or is there more to it than that? | 
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08-06-2008, 09:10 AM
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#2 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,817
| There's a lot more to it than that. Have you ever heard of the tactical wheel, for example?* What does your coach say?
* It may be accused of being overly simplistic, but it is a basic example of fencing tactics. | 
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08-06-2008, 09:22 AM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 5,398
| In chess, you can think one move ahead. This works well against beginners, and is a skill you learns as a beginner. But there are some people who play games where they're both thinking 8 moves ahead. That's harder to do, and doesn't work as well against the kid that is only thinking one move ahead.
Throw in poker--- body language, deceit, luck, etc.
Then throw in the fact that our game is very physical.........
You've got the beginings of the idea. It's about figuring out the dumb things your opponent is doing, and using it against them. But it gets more complicated. | |
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08-06-2008, 10:03 AM
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#4 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,516
| I would very much recommend reading anything by Prof Zbigniew Czajkowski as a firm grounding in fencing tactics. Some of his papers are available on the Canadian Fencing web site, and serve as a good start to his books.
Allen Evans | |
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08-06-2008, 01:05 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,619
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Einin  Every now and then I hear someone mention that someone does or doesn't have a grasp of fencing tactics. (Sadly, I think I'm one of the latter...)
What kind of tactics are there in fencing? Would this just refer to, for example, consciously using a 1-2 against someone who always parrys quarte, i.e. basically using your opponent's weaknesses against them? Or is there more to it than that? | They say I don't grasp fencing tactics either.
Screw em. Just get out there and fence.
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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. And from this side only! The flight of a half-man, half-bird. Dinosaurs nuzzling their young in pastures where strip malls should be. Cookies on dowels. All those moment, lost in time. Gone, like eggs off a hooker's stomach. Time to die" -Phil Ken Sebben
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08-06-2008, 01:08 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: ::1
Posts: 5,383
| I actually use fencing tactics when filling in as assistant coach for a beginner class. I will take specific actions to draw out their skill set. I also watch them for signs of fatigue by watching for a decrease in the frequency of appropriate reactions and for signs of distraction. Then I make note of who needs work on what.
We do it whether consciously or not. But when I look at them as concious actions and not instinctive or intuitive reactions, then I can improve.
[edit: I need sleep]
__________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. | |
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08-06-2008, 01:54 PM
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#7 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,817
| I think this conversation is being seriously limited by an absense of a definition of terms. | |
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08-06-2008, 02:19 PM
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#8 | | ಠ_ಠ
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,346
| Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5MDK I think this conversation is being seriously limited by an absense of a definition of terms. | what does he fence? epee? only terms he needs to know are extend and fleche.  | |
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08-06-2008, 02:38 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 5,398
| Quote:
Originally Posted by noodle what does he fence? epee? only terms he needs to know are extend and fleche. | Also "stabil"  | |
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08-06-2008, 02:51 PM
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#10 | | Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 10,817
| No bounce? | |
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08-06-2008, 02:56 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: ::1
Posts: 5,383
| Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5MDK No bounce? | It just happens... no need to define it.
__________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. | |
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08-06-2008, 02:59 PM
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#12 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pennsauken, NJ
Posts: 10,682
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Quindecim It just happens... no need to define it. | You've obviously never seen how poorly some epeeists define "bouncing."
-B
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08-06-2008, 03:08 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 762
| What is tactics?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einin Every now and then I hear someone mention that someone does or doesn't have a grasp of fencing tactics. (Sadly, I think I'm one of the latter...)
What kind of tactics are there in fencing? Would this just refer to, for example, consciously using a 1-2 against someone who always parrys quarte, i.e. basically using your opponent's weaknesses against them? Or is there more to it than that? | Fencing tactics you asked? Here is the definition by Maestro Giancarlo Toràn: Tactics is deceit, but in an open sport this deception is not cheating because it takes place within an agreed set of rules known and shared by all participants. In other words it is possible, actually it is part of the game to influence, determine, and program the opponent’s decisions: this is tactics.
You may read this presentation which covers tactics, strategy, technique, and sport psychology http://www.schermaonline.com/scherma...ticle&sid=1857
Enjoy!  | |
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08-06-2008, 03:41 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,333
| The definitions of tactics basically revolve around anything used to gain success or an advantage.
So you could say that a tactic is any planned action, as opposed to merely reflexive actions.
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08-06-2008, 03:53 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami
Posts: 2,670
| Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt You've obviously never seen how poorly some epeeists define "bouncing."
-B | Define or execute?
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"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
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"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."
- Homer Simpson | |
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08-06-2008, 04:16 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: ::1
Posts: 5,383
| Quote:
Originally Posted by HDG Define or execute? | Have you SEEN the cleavage thread? :blush:
Some ideas on bouncing are very different and it has very little to do with epee.
__________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. | |
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08-06-2008, 04:20 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003 Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 5,398
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Quindecim Have you SEEN the cleavage thread? :blush:
Some ideas on bouncing are very different and it has very little to do with epee. | And everything to do with epee ists. | |
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08-06-2008, 05:48 PM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,243
| Simple Tactics from the USFCA study guide
Lines of attack and defense
Direct
Indirect
Simple
Compound Short Tactical Wheel
Foreseen actions
Partially foreseen actions
Unforeseen actions
Preparation
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Last edited by MdA; 08-06-2008 at 05:50 PM..
Reason: msp
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08-06-2008, 06:10 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New York City
Posts: 1,103
| Quote:
Originally Posted by MdA Simple Tactics from the USFCA study guide | How wonderfully helpful!
No, wait, I'm lying. | |
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08-06-2008, 06:43 PM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: California
Posts: 391
| physical chess
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einin Every now and then I hear someone mention that someone does or doesn't have a grasp of fencing tactics. (Sadly, I think I'm one of the latter...)
What kind of tactics are there in fencing? Would this just refer to, for example, consciously using a 1-2 against someone who always parrys quarte, i.e. basically using your opponent's weaknesses against them? Or is there more to it than that? | Consider three stages of the bout:
Beginning game
Middle game
end game
In the beginning, you are finding what their reactions are and how to draw a specific reaction when you want.
Middle game you are getting points but not using your "magic bullet" that you learned in your beginning campaign.
End game, you use the "magic bullet" and get the final touch.
This works in 5 touch bouts as well as DE (10 or 15 touches)
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