Fencing Tactics

[gladius]

Simple Tactics from the USFCA study guide

Lines of attack and defense
Direct
Indirect
Simple
Compound

Short Tactical Wheel

Foreseen actions
Partially foreseen actions
Unforeseen actions
Preparation

These are fencing "actions" not tactics.

Consider three stages of the bout:
Beginning game
Middle game
end game

In the beginning, you are finding what their reactions are and how to draw a specific reaction when you want.

Middle game you are getting points but not using your "magic bullet" that you learned in your beginning campaign.

End game, you use the "magic bullet" and get the final touch.

This works in 5 touch bouts as well as DE (10 or 15 touches)

This would fall more under the definition of strategy. To lure the opponent to do what you want him to do through deception, this is tactics, which is part of the strategy in fencing.

[Adler]

Simple tactics= I'm going to hit that guy.

Compound tactics= I'm going to hit that guy twice.

[Grasshopper]

In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... The A-Team.

[parrythis]

"Tactics" is one of my favorite discussion topics.

When people ask me the difference between "strategy" and "tactics", I generally say that your strategy is your high-level plan - the general guiding principals that will get you your objective. Tactics, on the other hand, are the low-level specific plans that will help you to execute your strategy.

I recently attended a clinic at Walt Dragonetti's club. He summed it up very well in one sentence:

"When you leave the En Guarde line, you better have a plan."

I took that message to heart and my fencing has benefited from it. When I don't have a plan, I lose control of the action. When I have a plan, I take control of the action. That, of course, does not always work as sometimes my opponent has a pretty good plan too. The idea, though, is to have a plan. Know what you are going to do - one, two, maybe three actions deep. Actions two and beyond may be choices, like a plan "A" and plan "B" with resulting paths being determined by how your opponent reacts to your first action.

As you get better at composing and executing complex plans, you will find that the execution of your plan becomes automatic and the thing you are thinking about is what your next actions will be at the end of your current plan of events. When that happens the phrases can be long, complex, and fascinating.

Start out simple. When the ref says, "Fence", have a simple plan of what you are going to do. Change it up with each point. Keep your opponent guessing. Add another level to the plan. Think two actions out. Then three.

Bear in mind that the good opponents will be doing this too. Like chess, as you are developing your plan, try to figure out what your opponent's plan is and allow for the fact that they may execute theirs before you execute yours.

[wwalkerjr]

Simple tactics= I'm going to hit that guy.

Compound tactics= I'm going to hit that guy twice.

Second intention=I'm going to remise, shout and fistpump.

[oiuyt]

Define or execute?

Both.

What some epeeists think is bouncing (in a fencing context) has nothing to do with what bouncing (in a fencing context) ought to be. Other know what it should be and can't do it.

-B

[Rick Shellhouse]

Here is a exercise I start my fencers on when I introduce them to the notion of tactics...

Take a piece of paper and at the top draw a square inside that square start with something simple like counter six envelopment with extension to arm...

Now think what possible things your opponent could do...say a disengage...ceding parry etc....draw lines to little boxes of their own and then from there you move to what your second intention attack would be and so on..until your final touch is point arriving on target....now done correctly you should end with different target zones...and a whole buncha lil boxes....this starts you realizing how many different ways a phrase can go

Now....tactics is setting up the situation that lead down those merry lil' paths....in such a way that ends with you scoring the touch...

Now.....that was done from close distance....add in from advance lunge range....then it just grows..

tactics is the ultimate application of the physiological aspects of the game..


R

[Grasshopper]

Take a piece of paper and at the top draw a square inside that square start with something simple like counter six envelopment with extension to arm...

Now think what possible things your opponent could do...say a disengage...ceding parry etc....draw lines to little boxes of their own and then from there you move to what your second intention attack would be and so on..until your final touch is point arriving on target....now done correctly you should end with different target zones...and a whole buncha lil boxes....this starts you realizing how many different ways a phrase can go



R

Rick has been sniffing glue again.

[Nolano]

I've fenced a few people I would call excellent tacticians. The kind of people where if you manage to get up on them, it almost never lasts. The kind who will be behind 4-0 in a pool bout, figure out their opponent, and win 5-4.
Happened to me once in a DE.
I was ahead 12-8, and I lost 15-13.

[Gav]

I've fenced a few people I would call excellent tacticians. The kind of people where if you manage to get up on them, it almost never lasts. The kind who will be behind 4-0 in a pool bout, figure out their opponent, and win 5-4.
Happened to me once in a DE.
I was ahead 12-8, and I lost 15-13.

From your profile I see you have only been fencing for 1 year. These sorts of results would reflect that. What you term "tactics" in this context is more likely experience. If you are in front to this degree and then losing you are probably choking or perhaps you lack the experience to finish the bout.

[Nolano]

Part of it was definitely a lack of experience. Not to mention I'd been fencing all day, and was really too tired to properly adjust my strategy.
This person has been described as an excellent tactician by other people, as well. The pool bouts I'm talking about happened to other people, not me.

[MdA]

These are fencing "actions" not tactics.

Your right. These are actions not tactics. I like to think of actions as the building blocks of a tactic or tactics. I was really trying to post the link to the tactical wheel which someone mentioned earlier. While it is simple…I think it is helpful to visualize a complex topic.

For a beginner tactics might consist of one or two actions. For advanced fencers it can become very complex depending on past history with a specific opponent…and current conditions in the bout. I find it useful to help my fencers develop a bout plan for specific fencers. This plan will include the use of specific actions in a sequence or in response to specific actions by the opponent. This helps the fencer begin to think about tactics.

[MdA]

I would very much recommend reading anything by Prof Zbigniew Czajkowski as a firm grounding in fencing tactics. Some of his papers are available on the Canadian Fencing web site, and serve as a good start to his books.

Allen Evans

These are very helpful.

[NGV]

I've fenced a few people I would call excellent tacticians. The kind of people where if you manage to get up on them, it almost never lasts. The kind who will be behind 4-0 in a pool bout, figure out their opponent, and win 5-4.

"Figuring out" your opponent by observing their strengths, weaknesses, and tendencies is part of tactics, but I'd say it's only the first step. The tactical game involves using those observations to anticipate or provoke specific actions from the opponent, and then responding accordingly.

For example, maybe you notice that your opponent relies mostly on a beat-disengage attack. Tactically speaking, you can then try to predict or provoke this particular attack, and respond in some way that a. scores a touch and b. makes your opponent think twice about using the beat-disengage in the future. If all goes well, you end up both ahead in the score and also a step ahead of your opponent's plans.

[Lady Quindecim]

we had a fencer that had a particular bad habit right before a big lunge. My mom made him aware of this and he dropped it like... a bad habit.
I was like, "Mooooooommmmm."

I just bring this up to demonstrate the contrast between awareness and tactics.

[thekoby]

Here's what I tell my students, "Stop trying to hit me and just hit me!"

[Hauptman]

People are trying to define tactics far too narrowly. An action is a tactic, but obviously not the end-all. Deception is certainly a tactic, but to say that all tactics involve deception is clearly wrong.

The definition: a plan, procedure, or expedient for promoting a desired end or result.

So everything metioned in this thread is a tactic. Now whether they are useful tactics is another story.

[Hauptman]

From your profile I see you have only been fencing for 1 year. These sorts of results would reflect that. What you term "tactics" in this context is more likely experience. If you are in front to this degree and then losing you are probably choking or perhaps you lack the experience to finish the bout.

Couldn't you just say that with greater experience comes a greater understanding of tactics?

It seems that unless your experience generates greater understanding then experience by itself means little.

[MdA]

Couldn't you just say that with greater experience comes a greater understanding of tactics?

It seems that unless your experience generates greater understanding then experience by itself means little.

I would agree with this...I have very experienced fencers who have great understanding of tactics...who will fail to apply the correct tactics in a bout. Either due to fatigue or an inability to motivate enough to figure out what the opponent is doing.

This gets into psychological state...if an extremely experienced fencers is unwilling or unable to engage his understanding of tactics...he or she can lose to a weaker opponent.

Strip side coaching can sometimes help motivate the fencer to use the correct tactic if they understand what is going on in the bout....but if the fencer is not in the correct psychological state this may still fail.

[MdA]

Long Tactical Wheel