Ask Fred events require Division Approval

[Rick Shellhouse]

It just keeps getting better and better.....

From the new NJ Division MOU which is required to receive any sanctioned events...

"2. Covered Event. For the purposes of this MOU, a “Covered Event” is defined as a fencing competition which uses the Club’s facilities or is conducted or hosted by or in association with the Club and which either requires a fencer to be a member of the US Fencing Association (hereafter referred to as the “USFA”) in order to participate or is publicized on askFRED.net, or both. Excepted from the definition of Covered Events are collegiate or scholastic (high school) competitions conducted under the authority of the NCAA, a recognized collegiate or scholastic athletic conference, the NJISAA or the NJIFA.

3. Approval of Covered Events. The Club must seek and obtain in advance the approval of the Division’s Tournament Committee and the Executive Committee as required by the Division Tournament Operations Manual in order to hold a Covered Event. Approval will be granted by the Executive and Tournament Committees in their sole and absolute discretion and the Division reserves the right to cancel, reschedule or reassign the running of any Covered Event up to 72 hours prior to the start of the event for any reason."

So if I want to run a club tournament....unsanctioned but want to use AskFred for registrations I know have to have the divisions approval...AND

"7. Fees. The Club will determine the entry fee for any Covered Event it conducts or sponsors. The Club will pay to the Division $5 for each weapon registration of each fencer at a Covered Event."

pay the division $5 per head....


hmmmmmm...


Rick Shellhouse

[noodle]

is this unusual or something? thats the policy of multiple divisions that i know of. some include the cover charge per fencer, some don't, but requiring the tournaments to be ok'd by the division is not unusual in my book. some divisions don't allow individual clubs to even run events, iirc.

[Rick Shellhouse]

For a unsanctioned event?

What division are you in? And what divisions do the same?


If I am wrong speak up...how many divisions control EVERY competition that takes places with its borders? Sanctioned or UNSANCTIONED?




Rick

[Tyldak]

Come again?

Someone owns a fencing club, and let's assume, for the sake of argument, that that person doesn't receive any help from the division or the USFA for anything, other than said club being a club member of the USFA.

Said club says, "I'm going to run a Fun Day tournament. This isn't going to be a USFA/division-sanctioned event which awards ratings or qualifies anyone for anything. I'm just going to run a tournament, with similar/same rules and procedures that a sanctioned tournament would be governed by, on my own private property. By the way, I might use AskFred to handle pre-registrations."

...And there are some divisions which would be able to say, "No, private club owner, you cannot do that." ? Under what authority? With what enforcement mechanism?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Under what authority? With what enforcement mechanism?

The Crazy. Both the authority and the mechanism.

[Rick Shellhouse]

...And there are some divisions which would be able to say, "No, private club owner, you cannot do that." ? Under what authority? With what enforcement mechanism?

That if you want to hold ANY sanctioned event during the season you agree to this MOU. So your options are...

1. No sanctioned events...tell the division to take a long walk short pier

2. Agree to the MOU and well...you see..


Rick

[noodle]

For a unsanctioned event?

What division are you in? And what divisions do the same?


If I am wrong speak up...how many divisions control EVERY competition that takes places with its borders? Sanctioned or UNSANCTIONED?

Rick

From the new NJ Division MOU which is required to receive any sanctioned events...

....?

[oiuyt]

....?

The MOU is a document which the division requires clubs that wish to host at least one sanctioned event to sign.

Rick has highlighted a provision in it which applies to non-sanctioned events.

-B

[keith]

Rick has highlighted a provision in it which applies to non-sanctioned events.

-B

One supposes it may be legitimate in cases where a club was misleading fencers into entering unsanctioned events in the belief that they were sanctioned, rating earning, events. As far as I can tell form Fred it just assumes that events are USFA sanctioned (?).

There are, of course, plenty of unreasonable reasons for the provision.

[Rick Shellhouse]

I am not sure what is confusing...

If you plan to hold any sanctioned events i.e events which grant classifications etc you must sign the MOU.

So you either sign the MOU or you can not hold any division sanctioned events which means no classifications can be granted.

If you sign the MOU you are agreeing that all events fall under the Division's right to approve and deny and that any event you are required to pay the Division 5 per fencer even if it is unsanctioned (no classifications granted) and if you use Ask Fred.

So by signing the MOU which is required to hold any sanctioned event you are "voluntarily" giving up the right to hold unsanctioned events without divisional approval.


So my question to you again Noodle...what division are you in and what divisions require the same control as you stated

"thats the policy of multiple divisions that i know of. some include the cover charge per fencer, some don't, but requiring the tournaments to be ok'd by the division is not unusual in my book. some divisions don't allow individual clubs to even run events, iirc."

R

[noodle]

The MOU is a document which the division requires clubs that wish to host at least one sanctioned event to sign.

Rick has highlighted a provision in it which applies to non-sanctioned events.

-B

ah, ok, i gotcha now.

yeah, that's a little silly. but on the flip side of that, i don't see the purpose in publishing non-sanctioned tournaments on fred, either. i would be pissed off to no end if i thought i was going to a sanctioned event b/c it was on fred, but it turned out to not be sanctioned, and i don't know many people who would go to a non-sanctioned event if all it would be is just a simple tournament.

if i were faced with this dilemma, i'd host a fencing camp that involved a mock competition inside of it.

[noodle]

If you plan to hold any sanctioned events i.e events which grant classifications etc you must sign the MOU.

what was confusing is that you did not make this clear.

[bigdawg2121]

Might I suggest not publicizing your unsanctioned events on FRED? Do you anticipate large out of club attendance at these events such that you would need FRED to plan/publicize?

[Rick Shellhouse]

what was confusing is that you did not make this clear.

Sorry mea culpa...

R

[larkmaj]

In my reading of their definition of "covered events", the NJ division seems to think either it, or the USFA, owns askFRED because they seem to try an assume some control over what can be posted there.

I think Rick's major issue stems from the broad definition of "covered events", and rightfully so.

[keith]

yeah, that's a little silly. but on the flip side of that, i don't see the purpose in publishing non-sanctioned tournaments on fred, either. i would be pissed off to no end if i thought i was going to a sanctioned event b/c it was on fred, but it turned out to not be sanctioned, and i don't know many people who would go to a non-sanctioned event if all it would be is just a simple tournament.

But, it is "USFA member or advertised on Fred" which makes the innocent explanation doubtful. You would be in breach of the MOU by sending out an email to club members saying that instead of normal free bouting you were going to run a tournament for fun.

Of course if you just informed everyone who showed up for open fencing that you were having the same tourney you wouldn't be in breach

[Rick Shellhouse]

Might I suggest not publicizing your unsanctioned events on FRED? Do you anticipate large out of club attendance at these events such that you would need FRED to plan/publicize?

But where do you go to look for tournaments? The clubs website?
The Divisions page listing? or AskFred?



R

[Wafath]

... a recognized collegiate or scholastic athletic conference ....

Recognized by whom?

(Here's hoping the NIWFA is recognized; I don't think any of the other collegiate meets that happen in NJ would be impacted; NIWFA holds an event at a private club that is likely to be required to sign this MOU.)

W

[schlager7]

Ifa tournament is unsanctioned, that is, not sanctioned by the USFA (by way of the local division), it is not a USFA tournament.

The division is merely the regional adminstrative arm of the USFA.

If a tournament is not a USFA tournament, they have no more power over it than they would have over an SCA event or a kendo competition.

[oiuyt]

NIWFA events neither require USFA membership nor are publicized on askFRED.net. The definition doesn't hold and they are not "Covered Events".

Ditto collegiate dual meets at shared facilities (Tigerz Fencing Academy, potentially others).

-B