Referee exam vs Coach exam

[MdA]

The USFCA was the only organization to formally recognize Ed Korfanty for his Olympic accomplishment at the World Cup in Last Vegas with the Coach of the Year Award in 2004.

The services listed above are things that these so-called “rogue” coaches should be supporting. These services benefit not only individuals but the entire sport of fencing in the USA.

[MdA]

Notably quite a few of those folks are simply not the product of USFCA programs or instruction.

Many are products of a European system that values the association of fencing coaches.

Uh... ok?

No comment.

Time to crawl down off that cross. Bashing the elderly?

FencerX is the one that brought religion into the discussion.

Has the USFCA ever revoked anyone's certification?

Yes. There is a provision in the by-laws but I won’t mention names here.

[MdA]

The USFCA was the only organization to formally recognize Ed Korfanty for his Olympic accomplishment at the World Cup in Last Vegas with the Coach of the Year Award in 2004.

Slight correction here…before Mr. Epee hammers me again. The USFA elected Ed to the HOF this summer after he had to sue them to get the money they owe him.

[Wafath]

T
These programs support the fencers of many of these disinterested coaches.

I am not sure how these would actually benefit the majority of coaches out there.

USFCA needs to present a better case for being relevant to fencing coaches.

It would appear from their web page that the main reason to join the USFCA is to obtain certification; but for those whom are already a coach, why would they need that? They have a job/position already. Besides, to anyone in the USA, who is to say a USFCA certification is any better than one from coaches college?

The other major benefit is Coaching clinics, but looking at the web page, there are none listed.

Look, I am all in favor of professional institutions in general, but USFCA needs to make a better case for my $35 - $50 a year.

W

[MdA]

I am not sure how these would actually benefit the majority of coaches out there.

... They have a job/position already. Besides, to anyone in the USA, who is to say a USFCA certification is any better than one from coaches college?

The other major benefit is Coaching clinics, but looking at the web page, there are none listed.
W

Your right, most coaches don't know how maintaining a relationship with the NCAA benefits them or their fencers...fortunately many members of the USFCA do....USFA has done nothing for college fencing in many years.

No one said better than CC…just internationally recognized by AAI.

Most coaches don't understand the value of job/position listing until they need to move....and the time will come...for many of us.

Annual Conference in August 2008 is posted under News and on the front page of the website. New website will be available in August so updates have been limited to the old site.

Another clinic in September is posted in this forum. USFCA Epee Coaches Clinic - San Antonio

[Wafath]

Your right, most coaches don't know how maintaining a relationship with the NCAA benefits them or their fencers.

I'll bite. How would USFCA help me or my fencers by maintaining a relationship with the NCAA?

fortunately many members of the USFCA do....USFA has done nothing for college fencing in many years.

I'm willing to stipulate that, but what has USFCA done, or more importantly, what can they do in the future for college fencing?

No one said better than CC…just internationally recognized by AAI.

My point was poorly worded. AAI may carry weight with fencers, but to a school administrator/facility manager/other non fencer, both CC & AAI are just pieces of paper. It may make them feel more comfortable, but... the resume and recommendations (and police background check...) will be more important.

Annual Conference in August 2008 is posted under News and on the front page of the website. New website will be available in August so updates have been limited to the old site.

Another clinic in September is posted in this forum. USFCA Epee Coaches Clinic - San Antonio

Yes, great, wonderful. Why isn't it listed on the web page? Why isn't there more listed?

W

[LordShout]

fortunately many members of the USFCA do....USFA has done nothing for college fencing in many years.

NCAA fencing is not the heart and soul of collegiate fencing, there are wayyyy more club collegiate fencers than NCAA fencers. NCAA might have the best, but if you want my coach, and the coaches of colleges around me provide some tangible benefit to club collegiate fencing.

[MdA]

NCAA fencing is not the heart and soul of collegiate fencing, there are wayyyy more club collegiate fencers than NCAA fencers. NCAA might have the best, but if you want my coach, and the coaches of colleges around me provide some tangible benefit to club collegiate fencing.

Who is the heart and soul? What colleges are you talking about?

[Allen Evans]

The NCAA fencing program is the proverbial tree falling in the forest: it's slowly tottering, and when it finally hits the ground (I predict within 10-15 years) no one is going to be around to hear it.

The center of gravity for college fencing is moving to club sports, and the inter-club conferences that seem to spring up almost over night.


Allen Evans

[erooMynohtnA]

Who is the heart and soul? What colleges are you talking about?

MSU and other non NCAA schools, ostensibly. Given the original premise I have some questions for everyone to try to steer this away from another USACFC thread:

What can the USFCA do for them?

What do they want?

How can certification help collegiate club fencing?

How can collegiate club fencing help the USFCA?

I must admit, all my answers to those are I don't know.

[MdA]

The NCAA fencing program is the proverbial tree falling …The center of gravity for college fencing is moving to club sports, and the inter-club conferences that seem to spring up almost over night.
Allen Evans

Your right. Essentially, college fencing today is club fencing until you get to the championships. There are several conference championships and two national championships. One is completely paid for by the NCAA (including fencers and referees travel) the USACFC is paid for by the clubs themselves. Each college gets to pick the championship that is right for their needs and their budget.

I believe we should keep that tree propped up as long as we can. The schools with varsity programs offer a great college fencing experience for our fencers (not just the scholarship athletes)….facilities, equipment, dedicated coaching staffs…a few great jobs for coaches. We have one championship paid for by a large and powerful sports organization which also works with the USOC. I believe having fencing in the NCAA helps keep us supported by the USOC…they showcase each other.

I am sure that everyone has seen the NCAA fencing ads on TV. We make them look good…to a certain segment of the population, and vice versa.

MSU and other non NCAA schools, ostensibly. Given the original premise I have some questions for everyone to try to steer this away from another USACFC thread:

Good idea let’s steer clear…

What can the USFCA do for them? The USFCA can become a support organization for college club coaches just the way it has been for NCAA coaches in the past.

What do they want? I think college coaches want the USFCA to work issues like training and education for college coaches…and the championship issues…and negotiate support from the USFA.

How can certification help collegiate club fencing? As club championships develop and participation increases, I would hope that there will be competition for good coaches. Training and certification can help in this area.

How can collegiate club fencing help the USFCA? Increase membership and keep it in the mainstream of college fencing…help the USFCA promote fencing and fencing opportunities for coaches.

I must admit, all my answers to those are I don't know.

That’s OK. I don’t know all the answers either…just trying to help. By the way, the NCAA provided a grant to the USFCA last year for a Women and Minorities coaching clinic. The clinic was held last December at Drew university and several NJ high school coaches attended.

The USFCA is applying for another grant this year and hopes to expand this program.

Our new USFCA Secretary, Paul Schimelman, is a college club coach at Texas-Austin. I hope that we can activate the Collegiate Committee in the USFCA and start dealing with club issues.

[kuroutesshin]

Your right. Essentially, college fencing today is club fencing until you get to the championships. There are several conference championships and two national championships. One is completely paid for by the NCAA (including fencers and referees travel) the USACFC is paid for by the clubs themselves. Each college gets to pick the championship that is right for their needs and their budget.

And let's not forget that the USACFC is growing in size every year. Also, schools with varisty programs are not allowed to field teams- exceptions are made for schools like NU, whose men's team is not varisty.

I believe we should keep that tree propped up as long as we can. The schools with varsity programs offer a great college fencing experience for our fencers (not just the scholarship athletes)….facilities, equipment, dedicated coaching staffs…a few great jobs for coaches. We have one championship paid for by a large and powerful sports organization which also works with the USOC. I believe having fencing in the NCAA helps keep us supported by the USOC…they showcase each other.

I am sure that everyone has seen the NCAA fencing ads on TV. We make them look good…to a certain segment of the population, and vice versa.

I understand your position as the father of NCAA fencers, but we really have to ask the question- what is the net benefit of the NCAA experience, when competitions boil down to a pissing match between two schools? The truth is that club programs, like Allen said, and shooting up every day to fill the vacuum. Most of these programs are run by extremely competent coaches- few of them by actual FMs.

I would love to install a great fencing program at MSU. The problem is getting universities to accept the cost, and to find a reason to hire a Maitre d'Armes to teach fencing as an elective. The best way, I think, is to follow the example of Gaugler and Gillet, and hire a Fencing Master who is also involved in other departments.

Our new USFCA Secretary, Paul Schimelman, is a college club coach at Texas-Austin. I hope that we can activate the Collegiate Committee in the USFCA and start dealing with club issues.

I know you must have a list sixty pages long of goals for the USFCA, but the part I bolded, I think, is incredibly important. I always try to get my young cousins, relatives, and friends to fence because if they enjoy it they will develop it, and what better place than at a college? If the USFCA were to create a program for collegiate clubs (like the membership mentioned earlier) I wager the amount of certified members/active coaches would go up.

Using colleges to produce licensed coaches creates a huge base that can develop for the organization.

[Allen Evans]

Using colleges to produce licensed coaches creates a huge base that can develop for the organization.

What would that program look like? Who would pay for it, the college, or the USFCA?

AE

[Mr Epee]

...and what better place than at a college?

Any place would be better than college.

What an amazingly horrible horrible idea.

College Fencing : Fencing Business
Estes Rockets : NASA

[griffindm]

Any place would be better than college.

What an amazingly horrible horrible idea.

College Fencing : Fencing Business
Estes Rockets : NASA

The role of colleges in developing fencers has changed over the past forty years, but remains important.

When I learned to fence in the 1970's, NCAA fencing was important in developing much of the US national team, although it was not readily apparent, as the average age of an national team member was in the range 28-30. It was not unusual for a successful fencer to have started the sport while in college. Some started before, but it was not an overwhelming percentage. I started in collage, and many of my friends in the sport did as well.

Today, NCAA fencing is a much smaller (in numbers) showcase for fencers that began their careers at a much earlier age. I would suggest that a negligible number of fencers begin their fencing careers at schools with NCAA programs, as the focus there is in recruiting already successful fencers, demonstrated through high finishes in cadet and junior level competitions.

Club fencing, on the other hand, still serves as the vehicle where many people are introduced to the sport. Probably a lesser percentage than when I began, as the number and quality of non-collegiate club programs has grown tremendously since then. When I began there were only 2-4 clubs in the Baltimore/Washington corridor. Today that number has grown many fold.

Don't dismiss college fencing as totally meaningless to today's fencing. It still has a role to play.

[Mr Epee]

Don't dismiss college fencing as totally meaningless to today's fencing. It still has a role to play.

Surely, the sustainability of those collegiate teams, and the results of those US Teams in the 1970's speak volumes about the success of that particular model...

A role to play? Certainly... but to pretend that that role is central in any way is folly. Pure and simple.

[griffindm]

Mr. E.

Would you then suggest that the demise of NCAA fencing is something to be eagerly anticipated by the US fencing community?

While the decline of NCAA fencing happened before the rise of our current round of success, I am unconvinced of a causal linkage.

[griffindm]

Oh, and when did you relocate to Finland? I had a Finnish fencer at my club for the past year that just returned home.

[kuroutesshin]

What would that program look like? Who would pay for it, the college, or the USFCA?

AE

On the fly, I'm not quite sure. I would be inclined to say that the university would pay the share, which is a difficult situation in and of itself in this time of raising tuition costs. Michigan State, where I am, actually has fencing courses on the rolls- the problem is that there is no one to teach them.

We mentioned in another thread that Gaugler's school isn't accredited for the USFCA, and is the only collegiate instructor's program in the nation. The USFCA might organize with colleges to introduce fencing masters degrees.

Of course, it's a very big dream and probably twice as difficult.

Any place would be better than college.

What an amazingly horrible horrible idea.

College Fencing : Fencing Business
Estes Rockets : NASA
...
Surely, the sustainability of those collegiate teams, and the results of those US Teams in the 1970's speak volumes about the success of that particular model...

A role to play? Certainly... but to pretend that that role is central in any way is folly. Pure and simple.

In terms of producing large numbers of low-mid ability fencers?? Absolutely central. In terms of producing olympic-level fencers? Not so much. But that's an argument about the focus of the fencing community.

This is where the USFCA can do some good, in outreach to clubs, even if it's just finding the head coach's name on a webpage and sending him a pamphlet. If you send out ten pamphlets and 5 coaches join, you're ahead. By constructing a system for coaches in collegiate settings, who can be instructed on retention programs, outreach, and lessons, I think it's more likely that people will continue to fence after college.

[fencerX]

This is where the USFCA can do some good, in outreach to clubs, even if it's just finding the head coach's name on a webpage and sending him a pamphlet. If you send out ten pamphlets and 5 coaches join, you're ahead. By constructing a system for coaches in collegiate settings, who can be instructed on retention programs, outreach, and lessons, I think it's more likely that people will continue to fence after college.

Uh, let's chew on this ...

So you're suggesting the USFCA, which has problems with retention and outreach, instruct others on retention and outreach??