Coup en Seconde?

[Mustache Wax]

I was reading "By the Sword" by author Richard Cohen. He refers to the "coup en seconde" as one of the "most powerful moves" in fencing. Now I understand this is a more historical dueling reference than it is a modern sport fencing reference, but all the same, what exactly would this move entail and would it be legal by modern rules?

[kuroutesshin]

Do you have the chapter and page number, so those of us who have Cohen's book can reference?

If my french serves me, it's a touch scored from the second parry... which I believe would deliver the point directly to the center of the chest/heart... unless he specifies in the text, which I can't really remember.

[telkanuru]

Um, parry-2 is a low-line parry, so not exactly the heart, but to the lower torso. It is definitely one of the most powerful moves in fencing, if by powerful you mean physically strong.

If we are indeed referring to parry-2, it is a parry which results in the blade being in a low-line position on the weapon-arm side of the body, with the palm of the hand facing out. Standard riposte targets from this parry are the flank, the leg, and the toe.

[Grasshopper]

Um, parry-2 is a low-line parry, so not exactly the heart, but to the lower torso. It is definitely one of the most powerful moves in fencing, if by powerful you mean physically strong.
.

parry 2 riposte would penetrate the pancreas. Causing a slow and painful death.

[thekoby]

If my french serves me, it's a touch scored from the second parry...

Roughly translated, coup en seconde means "Take (or blow) in Second" which would be a parry-2 like telkanuru said.

[Phrogger]

Would "coup" here mean the same as "coupe?" In that case I would see it as more of a rapid bind-thrust in second, cutting over the top of the opponent's blade, locking out the counterattack to the low outside, and ending with a thrust just under the arm. Not so useful in epee unless you're fast, because of the legs as target area.

Hopefully one of the coaches on the forum will reply to this with the correct answer.

[Goldgar]

Would "coup" here mean the same as "coupe?"

No. A "coup" is a blow, stroke, or thrust. A "coupé" (the word doesn't exist in Fench without the accent) is a cutover such as you describe -- in fencing, an action that passes the blade over the opponent's point, rather than disengaging under the guard or handle.

[piste off]

I was reading "By the Sword" by author Richard Cohen. He refers to the "coup en seconde" as one of the "most powerful moves" in fencing. Now I understand this is a more historical dueling reference than it is a modern sport fencing reference, but all the same, what exactly would this move entail and would it be legal by modern rules?

Darn. I wish you would have posted this a few hours earlier. I fenced Richard last night and could have asked him personally.

I'll be seeing him next week and will ask him directly.

R-

[Phrogger]

No. A "coup" is a blow, stroke, or thrust. A "coupé" (the word doesn't exist in Fench without the accent) is a cutover such as you describe -- in fencing, an action that passes the blade over the opponent's point, rather than disengaging under the guard or handle.

Since we're being picky... the word "Fench" doesn't exist in English, either.

That said, thank you for your clarification.

[Mustache Wax]

Darn. I wish you would have posted this a few hours earlier. I fenced Richard last night and could have asked him personally.

I'll be seeing him next week and will ask him directly.

R-

Wow. I will get the Chapter and page # later today and update thread.

Would "coup" here mean the same as "coupe?" In that case I would see it as more of a rapid bind-thrust in second, cutting over the top of the opponent's blade, locking out the counterattack to the low outside, and ending with a thrust just under the arm. Not so useful in epee unless you're fast, because of the legs as target area.

Hopefully one of the coaches on the forum will reply to this with the correct answer.

This is exactly what I was envisioning. I think in this usuage the word "seconde" is more of a reference to the blade position after the cutover, more so than a reference to a parry. Could be wrong though.

[telkanuru]

If you use the action as a take, it still maintains its strength, and is highly effective. the problem in epee is not actually your leg being target since if executed correctly you should have the distance down, but that it brings your opponent's point across the entirety of your target before you control it. I personally prefer to use 8 instead of 2 (the only difference is 8 does not turn your hand, and is slightly faster). Since I'm not turning my hand, I can more easily switch to a high line attack and/or flick.

[Phrogger]

By Goldgar's definition, "Coup en Seconde" would then mean simply, "thrust in second." That doesn't seem particularly powerful to me. I rarely use 2 at all, and like telkanuru, use 8 for the low line. I'd have to give the "most powerful move" title to a properly executed circular 6-bind attack, at least in epee. Anyone have a different suggestion?

I'd be interested in Richard's answer to this, ask him to demonstrate and why he thinks it is the most powerful move.

[wbowman]

If this is a beat or a take in seconde, as several posts here have speculated, then yes, it is very powerful. The flip side is that it puts the point in a position that takes much longer to get it back to the target for the riposte.
As a low-line parry, octave (eight, for non-francophiles) is intrinsically somewhat weaker because of the supinated hand position. The tradeoff is that it keeps the point in better position to carry through for the riposte.

[jjefferies]

If this is a beat or a take in seconde, as several posts here have speculated, then yes, it is very powerful. The flip side is that it puts the point in a position that takes much longer to get it back to the target for the riposte.
As a low-line parry, octave (eight, for non-francophiles) is intrinsically somewhat weaker because of the supinated hand position. The tradeoff is that it keeps the point in better position to carry through for the riposte.

So again we're saying that the difference is that in 2nd the hand is pronated while in 8th it is suppinated. And that pronation is inherently stronger for the parry than suppination as it is more natural. But isn't this making an assumption that in 8th's supination the fencer will always keep the point toward the opponent, i.e. bending the wrist. I can see where a fencer might take the 2nd with a slight bend upwards in the wrist which would likewise keep the point toward the target.

Or is there some other possible reason that the riposte from 8th would be faster?

[Grasshopper]

So again we're saying that the difference is that in 2nd the hand is pronated while in 8th it is suppinated. And that pronation is inherently stronger for the parry than suppination as it is more natural. But isn't this making an assumption that in 8th's supination the fencer will always keep the point toward the opponent, i.e. bending the wrist. I can see where a fencer might take the 2nd with a slight bend upwards in the wrist which would likewise keep the point toward the target.

Or is there some other possible reason that the riposte from 8th would be faster?

Prime is the only pronated parry I use. Everything else: 4, 6, 7, 8 is suppinated. Makes it easier to keep your point on target if you're not turning your wrist moving from position to position.

[piste off]

I spoke to Richard last night.

He did not recognize the term, and questioned where in the book it was seen.

We spoke about it briefly and his speculation was that it was a take in 2. He offered to give his perspective if we can supply the page number where you saw it.

R-

[wbowman]

But isn't this making an assumption that in 8th's supination the fencer will always keep the point toward the opponent, i.e. bending the wrist. I can see where a fencer might take the 2nd with a slight bend upwards in the wrist which would likewise keep the point toward the target.

Or is there some other possible reason that the riposte from 8th would be faster?

It's certainly possible to take the 2 with an upward bend of the wrist. It's just easier to do in 8. (try it and see).
If you use counter-8 as a take and hold the blade, it's easier to perform the riposte than if you use 2 and have to turn your hand around to get the point on-target. And if you do the parry 2 as a beat and then come back around for the riposte (as I do, self-taught, in foil) it takes a lot longer.

[griffindm]

As an epee coach that teaches a beat in 2nd to expose a top wrist/forearm hand shot, I would submit that 2nd is much more effective than 8 for this action. Dick Richards uses this action frequently. Not an action I use a great deal myself, but useful to have in the arsenal. Also useful for disrupting a potential counter attack.

When Dick takes someone's blade with this action, it often ends up in another timezone.

[piste off]

As an epee coach that teaches a beat in 2nd to expose a top wrist/forearm hand shot, I would submit that 2nd is much more effective than 8 for this action. Dick Richards uses this action frequently. Not an action I use a great deal myself, but useful to have in the arsenal. Also useful for disrupting a potential counter attack.

When Dick takes someone's blade with this action, it often ends up in another timezone.

That is the truth!

BTW - the Soviet system was based on a 6-2 game, realizing that these are the most effective high-low combinations in epee.

R-

[Adler]

That is the truth!

BTW - the Soviet system was based on a 6-2 game, realizing that these are the most effective high-low combinations in epee.

R-

Is that 6-2 up or 6-2 down?