Anyone can be a Fencing Coach ...or Pirate

[MdA]

Strikes me there must be at least one or two salles in the US that have sufficient expertise in the technical and pedagogical aspects of training fencers to run a master training program.

Yes and they need money to operate a program. Otherwise the cost would be too high for most amateur coaches as JBirch has said.

[keith]

Yes and they need money to operate a program. Otherwise the cost would be too high for most amateur coaches as JBirch has said.

Not necessarily - after all perhaps the cheapest route is to formalise what already happens?

The most expensive thing is to educate the amateurs, I am unlikely to find the time to attend coaches college or fly to san antonio for a weekend course. Would I like to? Sure I would. But unless there is a seminar within easy access I'll be passing on it.

On the other hand there are individuals who have committed to working towards the getting the skill set that might allow them to be professional coaches. They have already made the sacrifices necessary to go where the good coaches and fencers are. It would cost the USFCA little or nothing to accredit certain salles (run by USFCA masters?) to train the next generation. Could any Salle do it, no. Would the accredited Salles have to limit the number of people in the system, of course.

[MdA]

Not necessarily - after all perhaps the cheapest route is to formalise what already happens?

....They have already made the sacrifices necessary to go where the good coaches and fencers are. It would cost the USFCA little or nothing to accredit certain salles (run by USFCA masters?) to train the next generation. Could any Salle do it, no. Would the accredited Salles have to limit the number of people in the system, of course.

I agree this is the best and cheapest route...with amateur coaches serving apprenticeships. This is a workable solution. Word of caution: We have stumbled in the past because the resident FM or FMs have not kept up their membership in the USFCA. When it comes to exam time, they are not authorized to give the exams. However, this is workable and it will be easier to keep memberships current with the new web membership database to be delivered in August.

So you see we are obligated (all coaches) to a system where is order to produce new internationally recognized Moniteurs, Prevots, and Maitres, the current FMs must continue to support the USFCA. By staying involved in education, training, and certification, existing FMs stay current...a kind of conitnuing education for FMs...which has been mentioned in other threads.

[jBirch]

I agree this is the best and cheapest route...with amateur coaches serving apprenticeships. This is a workable solution. Word of caution: We have stumbled in the past because the resident FM or FMs have not kept up their membership in the USFCA. When it comes to exam time, they are not authorized to give the exams. However, this is workable and it will be easier to keep memberships current with the new web membership database to be delivered in August.

So you see we are obligated (all coaches) to a system where is order to produce new internationally recognized Moniteurs, Prevots, and Maitres, the current FMs must continue to support the USFCA. By staying involved in education, training, and certification, existing FMs stay current...a kind of conitnuing education for FMs...which has been mentioned in other threads.

As my wife says, "Nagging you is pointless". Why would nagging FMs be any different?

I would think that, for a while at least, it would be a simple matter to just not let high level fencing memberships expire. If you're internationally active, and have a salle then you get an automatic USFCA membership.

Think of it like tenure.

James.

[MdA]

As my wife says, "Nagging you is pointless". Why would nagging FMs be any different?

I would think that, for a while at least, it would be a simple matter to just not let high level fencing memberships expire. If you're internationally active, and have a salle then you get an automatic USFCA membership.

Think of it like tenure.

James.

Brilliant. Thanks for the idea. I will work on it.

[milstdfarm]

"Anyone can be a fencing coach ... or a pirate" Now that's pretty funny! But it's not true. I really want to be a pirate but my wife won't let me. We compromised on fencing coach. So here I am.

It would be good to have some kind of accreditation but don't make it too hard on us amateur coaches. We do it because we loved fencing as kids and now want to teach other kids how to do it.

I don't have a problem telling my students that if they start getting good, they need to find a better coach. But I'm teaching beginners. If they had to travel long distances to learn the basics, they would never start the sport.

My biggest worry is that I might teach some bad habits. So I'm here to learn how to be a better coach. I can't see myself accepting money to teach. (In fact I'm so dumb I spent my money for the equipment we needed to get started!) I do it because I like fencing and I like working with the kids.

[MdA]

Your doing it the right way. That is the way most of us coaches got started. The point to this thread is that when you want to take your kids farther....because you like fencing...and because you have inspired them...I encourage you to seek out opportunities to improve yourself as a coach. Your fencers will be depending on you.

[jBirch]

Your doing it the right way. That is the way most of us coaches got started. The point to this thread is that when you want to take your kids farther....because you like fencing...and because you have inspired them...I encourage you to seek out opportunities to improve yourself as a coach. Your fencers will be depending on you.

...

And accreditation helps with this...how?

Avast ye hardies! Run up the Jolly Roger and heave to starboard!

James.

[aamct2]

An accreditation helps you in the same way a college degree does. Neither slip of paper is required to work in most fields (there are exceptions to both cases). Neither slip is what gets you a job. Neither slip suddenly makes you better in your field. It's the journey you took to get the certifications, what you learned along the way that helps you be a better coach/employee.

What a certification (whether it is from an accredited college or an accredited organization like the USFCA) does is provide a standard. Employers look at that because they have an idea of what you can do. You don't get hired on that alone, but it's a starting point for understanding your abilities.

Secondly, by setting a standard you provide a means of communicating about the discipline. If everyone is learning the fundamentals in mostly the same manner, they are able to better communicate items in the discipline and further its development.

Thirdly, by setting a standard it sets an educational framework for learning the discipline. It doesn't give you all the details, just a framework. Within this framework you have freedom for change. However, having a framework of some kind is necessary to build a full educational program.

There are other reasons for wanting a standard. And by having a standard it does NOT restrict change, it does NOT restrict individual differences. But it does give a common ground or framework.

Indeed, why do we have standards for most things yet resist this one so heavily? What makes coaching fencing so different from everything else? Or every other sport for that matter?

[Allen Evans]

But, currently, there is no standard for coaching inside the USFCA. In fact, there seem to be members of the USFCA arguing against such a standard, or the establishment of a "National School" of fencing.

What conclusions should be drawn from this?

AE

[Wafath]

An accreditation helps you in the same way a college degree does. Neither slip of paper is required to work in most fields (there are exceptions to both cases). Neither slip is what gets you a job. Neither slip suddenly makes you better in your field. It's the journey you took to get the certifications, what you learned along the way that helps you be a better coach/employee.

A college degree leads to, on average, better employment opportunities & higher salary. In fact, the vast majority of college graduates are operating on the assumption that this initial investment will pay in the long run. Statistically this has been a good assumption. Make no mistake, that slip of paper is a requirement for many jobs in the US today.

This has not been demonstrated to be the case with coaches. For coaches that run their own business, most prospective clients do not ask for accreditation information. I suspect that even those with accreditation may prefer to use other aspects to make the sale, like the coach's competitive background, the success of their students or the general benefits of the sport.

For coaches that do not own the salle, the majority of them are hired (or accepted as volunteers) regardless of accreditation. Despite claims to the contrary on the USFCA's web page, I have never heard of a school, parks org, or municipal activities group asking for any accreditation other than those issued by the American Red Cross.

To me, it is interesting contrasting the apparent attitudes of the USFCA and Coaches College. From the outside, it appears that USFCA treats accreditation as the goal, and learning coaching as a possible secondary side benefit, while coaches college treats learning coaching as the goal, and a slip of paper as a possible side benefit.

W

[aamct2]

But, currently, there is no standard for coaching inside the USFCA. In fact, there seem to be members of the USFCA arguing against such a standard, or the establishment of a "National School" of fencing.

What conclusions should be drawn from this?

AE

I would argue that the USFCA does have a standard, albeit they don't call it that. If you look at the Moniteur Written and Practical Exam Study Guides, it specifically lists what a coach should be able to demonstrate proficiency in to pass the exam and gain certification. See:

http://www.usfca.org/usfca/misc/Moni...StudyGuide.htm

and

http://www.usfca.org/usfca/misc/Moni...StudyGuide.htm

I'm not saying this is/will/should be the official standard for the USFCA. What I am saying is that this is a type of standard and perhaps the beginning of an official one.

[aamct2]

For coaches that run their own business, most prospective clients do not ask for accreditation information. I suspect that even those with accreditation may prefer to use other aspects to make the sale, like the coach's competitive background, the success of their students or the general benefits of the sport.
W

Anyone can run their own business without a degree. A degree is not required to hire yourself for yourself. Even with non-sport businesses, a portfolio of previous work is what is looked at most closely, not the degree someone has. That doesn't mean a degree isn't useful, that doesn't mean that it isn't looked at, but it is not the primary concern of the average customer.

[Allen Evans]

I would argue that the USFCA does have a standard, albeit they don't call it that. If you look at the Moniteur Written and Practical Exam Study Guides, it specifically lists what a coach should be able to demonstrate proficiency in to pass the exam and gain certification.

(snip of links)

I'm not saying this is/will/should be the official standard for the USFCA. What I am saying is that this is a type of standard and perhaps the beginning of an official one.

And I would argue -- having watched a number of exams -- that this standard still varies widely from test to test, and in some cases, isn't followed at all.

AE

[Wafath]

Anyone can run their own business without a degree. A degree is not required to hire yourself for yourself. Even with non-sport businesses, a portfolio of previous work is what is looked at most closely, not the degree someone has. That doesn't mean a degree isn't useful, that doesn't mean that it isn't looked at, but it is not the primary concern of the average customer.

The majority of people with college degrees do not start their own business. Those that do tend to work in the field for a while, which does require a degree. There is a well documented correlation between salary and education level.

I am still confused as to where you think accreditation will help. Yes, the act of studying for it may help improve the skills, but the piece of paper? With a college degree, there is a huge difference in the opportunities presented to someone who completed four years of school & never applied for graduation vs someone who has. Where will accreditation help? In what case will the act of getting certification aid the coach more than just spending the time & money improving their skills? And is this situation one that most (or a significant percentage of) coaches likely to face?

W

[Allen Evans]

And I think that this is the heart of the problem with the USFCA: there is NO market for what the USFCA feels is its biggest product: certification.

I strongly feel that the USFCA has to shift gears from offering diplomas to offering education to coaches, especially at regional level into markets the USFA's Coaches College can't penetrate. Arnold Mercado, in his latest editorial in the USFCA magizine feels that the USFCA has been doing this all along. I would disagree, but that's neither here nor there right now.

AE

[jBirch]

And I think that this is the heart of the problem with the USFCA: there is NO market for what the USFCA feels is its biggest product: certification.

I strongly feel that the USFCA has to shift gears from offering diplomas to offering education to coaches, especially at regional level into markets the USFA's Coaches College can't penetrate. Arnold Mercado, in his latest editorial in the USFCA magizine feels that the USFCA has been doing this all along. I would disagree, but that's neither here nor there right now.

AE

Can I rep you more then 300 times? Pretty Please?

This is EXACTLY the point. EXACTLY.

James.

[MdA]

....Thirdly, by setting a standard it sets an educational framework for learning the discipline. It doesn't give you all the details, just a framework. Within this framework you have freedom for change. However, having a framework of some kind is necessary to build a full educational program.

I like aamct2's third point. Must be something about third points....like Capt Barbossa's third point...."...guidelines.."

You guys really got negative on the USFCA while I was off the thread....while many dedicated USFCA members were busy offering training and education at our annual conference....I was not there, by the way, because I am the pirate rouge member of the fleet.

The whole point to this thread is that you don't need certification to coach fencing in the USA. So what do we do to improve the level of coaching?

We have to start somewhere..and as aamct2 says...you must have a framework. The USFCA study guides have been updated and the new USFCA website will be online in a few days.

Clinics are scheduled in San Antonio (epee) on Sept 5-7 and at Northwestern University (foil) in Evanston, IL. on Sept 21.

We have elected a new President and three new members to the Certification and Accreditation Board (CAB).

I had a nice long phone call with the new chairperson of the CAB and the focus in on Education and Training...he is a '75 graduate of the French INS...so he understands how to teach teachers of fencing.

So the point is... that the USFCA has got your points...so let's move on.

[Jason]

So the point is... that the USFCA has got your points...so let's move on.

A bit premature.
Actions, baby. Actions.

[oiuyt]

A bit premature.
Actions, baby. Actions.

Pulling from a recent blog post:

09) .What you do speaks so loud I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Allen is right:

[T]he USFCA has to shift gears from offering diplomas to offering education to coaches, especially at regional level into markets the USFA's Coaches College can't penetrate. Arnold Mercado, in his latest editorial in the USFCA magizine feels that the USFCA has been doing this all along. I would disagree, but that's neither here nor there right now.

-B