Anyone can be a Fencing Coach ...or Pirate

[MdA]

Mmmm, checking the most recent budget report nothing was charged against that line item this fiscal year through the end of May. Seems like it could have been suspended.

Makes it more likely that your best option is the one Allen suggested....

-B

Suspended? Arrrrgh...it never got started...Coaches College Regional Area Clinics...that is. I was on the USFA Coaches Committee from 00-04. During those four years a Regional Area Clinic was never conducted. I doubt that one was held in the past four years...by the way the USFA Coaches Committee has not had any members for the last four years.

I hope the new administration will appoint a chairman who will staff the committee...with that said, I am sure that VP Benson will attend to this matter...he is a USFCA "M-word"

[Allen Evans]

I'd like to see these come back. Seattle hosted a number of them in the 90's and they were very popular. I received all of my Level One certifications from them (though I think they stopped giving the test during these seminars later). I found the atmosphere more relaxed and the work a little better paced.

Also, I got to sleep in my own bed, an added bonus.

Allen Evans

[MdA]

Well, that's simplifying it much further than I think he intended it to mean, but it makes you ask the question- what does the title mean, who is giving it to me, and what is the importance therein?....

I'll go back to my query about the USFCA and the Military Master's program at San Jose. Gaugler's school creates Fencing Masters. So does the USFCA. What's the difference between the two? And if there is one, why? What if one of their master's became active in the olympic fencing world?

Let me fill you in on Gaugler’s school. His school (based on the Italian Military Masters model) was affiliated with San Jose State for many years much like the American Fencing Academy (AFA) at Cornell. …see below (borrowed from US Fencing HOF by Andy Shaw)

M. Gillet's greatest contribution to US Fencing was his long involvement between 1973 and 1984 with the American Fencing Academy (AFA), the two-year Fencing Masters program located on the campus of Cornell University. The program was developed in response to the need for a national academy for the training of Fencing Masters located in the United States. M. Gillet's AFA involvement spanned the entire existence of the academy. (Staffed over time as well by M. Raoul Sudre, M. Jacques Piguet and M. Steven Cook). In 1977, he published Foil Technique and Terminology which was the primary written reference for training and certification within the USFCA for many years. It was updated in 1994 and still serves as a valuable reference for those preparing for USFCA examinations

The program was designed on the French model of the Institute of Sports and the Military School at Antibes. The two-year full-time graduate program included the study of virtually every aspect involved in the teaching of fencing. Emphasis was also placed on the total business of fencing, especially the running and maintenance of a fencing salle. An average training and study day at the AFA lasted twelve hours. As a result of that program a group of Fencing Masters trained in the US emerged, working with and developing successful fencers and fencing programs at the local, national and international level. The Fencing Master Graduates of the American Fencing Academy: Lynn Antonelli, Guy Bertrand, Steve Cook, Adam Crown, Gene Gettler, Raymond Finkleman, James Fazekas, Greame Jennings, John Helmich, Anthony “Buckie” Leach, James Murray, Colin Oberg, Robert Scranton, Marc Twomey, and John Wills represent a part of the legacy to the art and sport of fencing inspired by M. Gillet. Today, M. Gillet resides in Gerde, France, at the foothills of the Pyrenees Mountains. For a detailed description of the program at AFA please visit the website of graduate Adam Crown where he answers the question: What exactly is a fencing master and how did you get to be one?

If you check Adam Crown’s website you will note that the graduates of the AFA took the USFCA certification exam. Most of Gaugler’s graduates did not.

[MdA]

I'd like to see these come back. Seattle hosted a number of them in the 90's and they were very popular. I received all of my Level One certifications from them (though I think they stopped giving the test during these seminars later). I found the atmosphere more relaxed and the work a little better paced.

Also, I got to sleep in my own bed, an added bonus.

Allen Evans

Thanks Allen...I stand corrected.

[MdA]

Let me fill you in on Gaugler’s school. His school (based on the Italian Military Masters model) was affiliated with San Jose State for many years .......

If you check Adam Crown’s website you will note that the graduates of the AFA took the USFCA certification exam. Most of Gaugler’s graduates did not.

This begs the question which has already been asked here...What does it matter if the Military Masters graduates did not take the USFCA exams?

The USFCA is a member of the AAI and gives AAI certificates. The AAI protocol requires that three AAI MdAs be on the board.

...what I know is that there was some political in-fighting and Gaugler was giving his final exams without AAI masters...so the USFCA wouldn't recognize his program. Same old political crap...this was tied in with Gaugler being affiliated with the Italian Academy which was not affiliated with the AAI...there were two at the time in Italy.

Some of his graduates took the USFCA exam and passed...it should not have been such a big deal.

[Hauptman]

Let me fill you in on Gaugler’s school. His school (based on the Italian Military Masters model) was affiliated with San Jose State for many years much like the American Fencing Academy (AFA) at Cornell. …see below (borrowed from US Fencing HOF by Andy Shaw)

M. Gillet's greatest contribution to US Fencing was his long involvement between 1973 and 1984 with the American Fencing Academy (AFA), the two-year Fencing Masters program located on the campus of Cornell University. The program was developed in response to the need for a national academy for the training of Fencing Masters located in the United States. M. Gillet's AFA involvement spanned the entire existence of the academy. (Staffed over time as well by M. Raoul Sudre, M. Jacques Piguet and M. Steven Cook). In 1977, he published Foil Technique and Terminology which was the primary written reference for training and certification within the USFCA for many years. It was updated in 1994 and still serves as a valuable reference for those preparing for USFCA examinations

The program was designed on the French model of the Institute of Sports and the Military School at Antibes. The two-year full-time graduate program included the study of virtually every aspect involved in the teaching of fencing. Emphasis was also placed on the total business of fencing, especially the running and maintenance of a fencing salle. An average training and study day at the AFA lasted twelve hours. As a result of that program a group of Fencing Masters trained in the US emerged, working with and developing successful fencers and fencing programs at the local, national and international level. The Fencing Master Graduates of the American Fencing Academy: Lynn Antonelli, Guy Bertrand, Steve Cook, Adam Crown, Gene Gettler, Raymond Finkleman, James Fazekas, Greame Jennings, John Helmich, Anthony “Buckie” Leach, James Murray, Colin Oberg, Robert Scranton, Marc Twomey, and John Wills represent a part of the legacy to the art and sport of fencing inspired by M. Gillet. Today, M. Gillet resides in Gerde, France, at the foothills of the Pyrenees Mountains. For a detailed description of the program at AFA please visit the website of graduate Adam Crown where he answers the question: What exactly is a fencing master and how did you get to be one?

If you check Adam Crown’s website you will note that the graduates of the AFA took the USFCA certification exam. Most of Gaugler’s graduates did not.

I'm confused. You start by saying, "Let me fill you in on Gaugler’s school" and then launch into a description of Gillet's program.

Unless I'm mistaken, The SJSU program is recognized in Europe, and has had some very prestigious Italian masters sit on their examination boards on a number of occasions.

Now please don't take this as an invitation to argue the merits of the SJSU program; I really don't want to get into that. But in terms of structure and accreditation, they stand up well.

[Durando]

Just to clear things up a little. My understanding is that passing the BE1 in France gives you the right to be called a MdA. More importantly, it allows you to accept payment for your fencing lessons. That's right--until you've passed a national-level exam which is not only a test of your knowledge of the sport but also proof of your capacity of a teacher of that sport, and to render first aid, you are breaking the law (or at least the rules of the FFE) should you accept money for your lessons or teaching.

Now, still and all, most clubs will kick in a certain amount, payable in membership fees or equipment, should you be undergoing the training for any of the recognized teaching posts. But it does make a long road all the more difficult. I think the USFA is in for a big correction in the number of members. The wild west aspect of American coaching is a big contributing factor. Gaugler's efforts are ultimately detrimental to the level of American coaching as they perpetuate an antique standard. (His students have every right to feel that getting through the program is an accomplishment). Until someone can impose themselves politically to certify coaches, coaching development in the United States will continue its rudderless progress. (Which makes it all the more prey to piracy).

[Jason]

Durando is completely correct on all points.

[oiuyt]

Suspended? Arrrrgh...it never got started...Coaches College Regional Area Clinics...that is. I was on the USFA Coaches Committee from 00-04. During those four years a Regional Area Clinic was never conducted.

I attended one during that time period. ~2002. Taught by Alex and hosted somewhere in Connecticut (I forget where).

-B

[Hauptman]

Just to clear things up a little. My understanding is that passing the BE1 in France gives you the right to be called a MdA. More importantly, it allows you to accept payment for your fencing lessons. That's right--until you've passed a national-level exam which is not only a test of your knowledge of the sport but also proof of your capacity of a teacher of that sport, and to render first aid, you are breaking the law (or at least the rules of the FFE) should you accept money for your lessons or teaching.

Now, still and all, most clubs will kick in a certain amount, payable in membership fees or equipment, should you be undergoing the training for any of the recognized teaching posts. But it does make a long road all the more difficult. I think the USFA is in for a big correction in the number of members. The wild west aspect of American coaching is a big contributing factor. Gaugler's efforts are ultimately detrimental to the level of American coaching as they perpetuate an antique standard. (His students have every right to feel that getting through the program is an accomplishment). Until someone can impose themselves politically to certify coaches, coaching development in the United States will continue its rudderless progress. (Which makes it all the more prey to piracy).

On your first point: would a standard of coaching certification by the USFA have a significant impact financially in terms of insurance? The USFA provides insurance coverage for member clubs; are there standards that must be met for membership? Would requiring certified instructors be justified?

One of the issues seems to revolve around the perceived connotation of "master". What does it really signify? A thorough knowledge of a subject is often the beginning and "mastery" will take years beyond to achieve.

A board certified doctor is ready to practice medicine but I'd rather have one with years of experience AND success behind them. Is a black belt in a martial art the culmination or merely the beginning of your journey?

So I guess my question is: what does it mean to be a fencing master? What level of fencer do we expect them to produce after they earn their certification?

As for the SJSU program, you may not agree with what they teach, but I will state again that they are pedagogically sound. If the USFCA can put together an equally well-structured program we would be in excellent shape.

[tbryan]

If you check Adam Crown’s website you will note that the graduates of the AFA took the USFCA certification exam.

While it's a nice description, links to Adam Crown's website just make me cringe.

While I understand that Maitre Crown has a different emphasis in his classes, he also posted a video that makes it look like he trains students in a way that gives them no real understanding of distance. That sort of thing that doesn't exactly inspire me to follow the same path to certification.

[MdA]

While it's a nice description, links to Adam Crown's website just make me cringe.

While I understand that Maitre Crown has a different emphasis in his classes, he also posted a video that makes it look like he trains students in a way that gives them no real understanding of distance. That sort of thing that doesn't exactly inspire me to follow the same path to certification.

Please don't get the wrong idea. Maitre Crown has chosen a different path for his fencing instruction...he openly admits that he is not into modern competitive Olympic fencing...or whatever we call it.

I just think he does an excellent job of explaining what it was like to go thru Maitre Gillet's AFA.

[MdA]

This also makes the point tbryan has made in the other thread on exams. Maitre Crown has not kept current ...in our opinion. He has headed down the "classical" path. I think if a person is interested in this type of fencing....then he is a Master...and he has completed an accreditted course of study to prove it. That is all that the "paper" implies.

If M. Crown came back to USFA/FIE fencing...people would argue that he is one of those "old guys" many may ignore him...but some may find his historical perspective important. The fact is he is still a Maitre and I respect him...and will always refer to him as the "M-word"

[MdA]

Update on Gaugler which I promised in a previous post. Gauglers program is still up and operating see link below:

http://www.fencingmastersprogram.com/index.php

Maestro Gaugler holds a fencing master’s diploma from the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma (National Academy of Fencing) at Naples, Italy, in addition to being a Professor Emeritus of Classical Archaeology.

None of the current faculty are USFCA members so their certificates can't be recognized by the USFCA or the AAI. Sorry ...that is just the rules...why would we give them one of our certificates if they don't support our organization with membership dues...we have a very small operating budget...and their curriculumn is not in sync with our exam process because there is no communication...again things broke down years ago...politics I believe

[MdA]

I don't know if Gaugler's faculty are members of the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma (National Academy of Fencing) at Naples, Italy...which is affiliated with AIMS...which is affilated with the AAI...but even if they are current members of the Italian Academy and then members of AIMS and then the AAI....the AAI says they can't operate a program in the USA without certification by the USFCA....sorry that is the rules....that being said the USFCA could accredit them if we want......"guidelines"...actual rules...pirates again

[HDG]

Am I mis-remembering, or did D'Asaro senior used to run things at SJSU?

[Jason]

that being said the USFCA could accredit them if we want

Why the hell would you want to? It's like when a school board considers teaching "intelligent design" alongside evolution in their science curriculum. Should the USFCA really be looking to be a "big tent" that covers everything fencing related?

[MdA]

Am I mis-remembering, or did D'Asaro senior used to run things at SJSU?

Mike D'Asaro was the NCAA Varsity coach from ...not sure of dates...1974 to 1980. I am pretty sure that 1980 was the last year. I won the Western Collegiate Regional foil that year...SJSU hosted...and then the next year he left.

I don't think he had anything to do with Gaugler's school but I may be wrong.

[MdA]

Why the hell would you want to? It's like when a school board considers teaching "intelligent design" alongside evolution in their science curriculum. Should the USFCA really be looking to be a "big tent" that covers everything fencing related?

I didn't say that we should accredit them....in fact, I am sure that the reason you site...is where the USFCA stopped years ago...

I was trying to point out how convoluted relations can get between these different national academies...the AAI try to be the umbrella over them all...the German Academy (for example) maintains relations with the Schlager FMs...they see it as part of their national fencing heritage....as the Italians see their Military Masters...it is complex and has nothing to do with modern fencing.

[Durando]

On your first point: would a standard of coaching certification by the USFA have a significant impact financially in terms of insurance? The USFA provides insurance coverage for member clubs; are there standards that must be met for membership? Would requiring certified instructors be justified?

Dunno. I can only imagine that being first-aid certified should be part of the requirements. I don't think we're even at the point where this makes sense to talk about--the organizational problems in the sport are so fundamental.

One of the issues seems to revolve around the perceived connotation of "master". What does it really signify? A thorough knowledge of a subject is often the beginning and "mastery" will take years beyond to achieve.

This question always makes me think of the Seinfeld episode with the conductor who insists on being called "maestro." I'm not so linguistically catholic that I would go to the mat insist on the proper use of the appellation, whatever that might be. Calling my coaches "maître" always makes them wince horribly. So that's why I do it.

So I guess my question is: what does it mean to be a fencing master? What level of fencer do we expect them to produce after they earn their certification?

A good question, Hauptman. Like the one above, I hope US fencing does someday get to a point where it makes sense to ask it. In France this is set out clearly. I'm citing from memory, but here goes. BE1 (brévet d'état 1) qualifies you to teach in a club; BE2 is meant to indicate you are able to develop competitive fencers on a regional level; BE3 is the qualification for teaching competitive fencing on a national level. There seems to be no shortage of BE1s, few BE2s, and very, very few BE3s.

As for the SJSU program, you may not agree with what they teach, but I will state again that they are pedagogically sound. If the USFCA can put together an equally well-structured program we would be in excellent shape.

I know and respect your position, Hauptman. Or big difference is that I think teaching fencing effectively in 2008 requires more pedagogical instruction than SJSU seems to offer on paper. You're right about the USFCA.