Learning to Think and Get Smart

[Delta]

I've relied on drilling in the past, especially on the technical aspect of things, but I'm at a stage where muscle memory really isn't helping me as much as it used to.
I aspire to be smarter fencer, but I'm not understanding touches the way I should be at my level. I don't mind being hit, but I want to understand why I was hit that particular way and learn from it.I have a difficult time processing and making the connection between "what happened right before I was hit" to " what would be the most logical way to disrupt this from happening again" between touches. Of course, when you don't realize what exactly you're during in a bout or even in free fencing, you'll most likely lose. My issue is not necessarily changing or adapting a different tactic, it's learning from the mistake and making sure it doesn't happen again during active fencing. Adapting a new tactic may win you the bout, but I don't think it necessarily resolves the underlying problem with what could be a glaring weakness which I cover up after it's been discovered. It's all fine when I ruminate afterwards, but that is post-defeat. Anyone had/have that trouble and found a way around it?

[yazzywazzy]

Hmm... I've realized that I fence better when I zone out and really just not think about anything. Even looking, you have to in a way look at everything and not at just the hand, legs etc. It's complicated to explain. It's important to not really think too much when fencing although when you are fishing to get reaction from your opponents it could be a good idea to find and later exploit his weaknesses

On improving, I usually reflect after every point during training to think about what went wrong, how I could avoid it from happening again if I do get stuck in a situation and if I do get a touche, I will reflect and see what I've done right and whether or not it was really a risky touche or I've done it correctly.

Then again everyone's different, this might or not work for you.

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by Delta

I have a difficult time processing and making the connection between "what happened right before I was hit" to " what would be the most logical way to disrupt this from happening again" between touches. Of course, when you don't realize what exactly you're during in a bout or even in free fencing, you'll most likely lose.

So the problem is learning to see what happened on each touch. Granted, in actual competition, everything may happen in a fog. But step by step, you need to put your mind on what actually happened -- distance, timing, preparation, distraction -- and to learn to do this consciously until it becomes unconscious. Some people learn this quicker than others. Some learn parts of it quicker than others -- which is more interesting, in a way. But you have to develop the ability to replay the touch -- at some level, in some modality -- so that you can learn from what happened. How? Attention! (until it becomes automatic -- and in fencing, because you have an opponent who is trying to mess with your perceptions, it never becomes completely automatic.

[Delta]

Originally Posted by yazzywazzy

Hmm... I've realized that I fence better when I zone out and really just not think about anything. Even looking, you have to in a way look at everything and not at just the hand, legs etc. It's complicated to explain. It's important to not really think too much when fencing although when you are fishing to get reaction from your opponents it could be a good idea to find and later exploit his weaknesses

On improving, I usually reflect after every point during training to think about what went wrong, how I could avoid it from happening again if I do get stuck in a situation and if I do get a touche, I will reflect and see what I've done right and whether or not it was really a risky touche or I've done it correctly.

Then again everyone's different, this might or not work for you.

I've noticed when people zone out, they often turn to a "______ robot" (insert a particular forte or skill they rely on a lot). This is a great example of muscle memory, but I think this isn't always the best tactical choice, especially when you have smart opponent.

I admit I have an over-thinking problem (usually second-guessing myself and not committing to a single action at a time), but that's part of the Get Smart program I'm starting.

The fog problem during competition is also a problem. I rarely remember bouts/the final score....I'm definitely not the most lucid fencer.

[bob46]

"I admit I have an over-thinking problem (usually second-guessing myself and not committing to a single action at a time), but that's part of the Get Smart program I'm starting."

Same here.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by Delta

I've relied on drilling in the past, especially on the technical aspect of things, but I'm at a stage where muscle memory really isn't helping me as much as it used to.
I aspire to be smarter fencer, but I'm not understanding touches the way I should be at my level. I don't mind being hit, but I want to understand why I was hit that particular way and learn from it.I have a difficult time processing and making the connection between "what happened right before I was hit" to " what would be the most logical way to disrupt this from happening again" between touches. Of course, when you don't realize what exactly you're during in a bout or even in free fencing, you'll most likely lose. My issue is not necessarily changing or adapting a different tactic, it's learning from the mistake and making sure it doesn't happen again during active fencing. Adapting a new tactic may win you the bout, but I don't think it necessarily resolves the underlying problem with what could be a glaring weakness which I cover up after it's been discovered. It's all fine when I ruminate afterwards, but that is post-defeat. Anyone had/have that trouble and found a way around it?

I think you're overthinking this a bit. At a coarse level, I break down a touch into technique, tactics and strategy. (This is how I describe my thinking, after the fact. In reality there's both a lot more and a lot less going on.)

Technique: Bad footwork puts you off balance, in the wrong distance, forces your hand to make bigger motions, etc. A badly performed lunge can fall short or can miss over the shoulder, etc. This is where "muscle memory" and practicing perfect help. No brain required here. Do the actions right, and things get better.

Tactics: By tactics I mean small sequences of actions. Others have different definitions. A pick at the hand to draw a counter attack, which I can then riposte. A half step back to make my opponent think I'm going back, and then fleche forward if he or she gets too aggressive. Each action has a purpose, and there's minimal thinking because it quickly changes from tactics to technique once the situation is in my favor.

Strategy: By strategy I mean large sets of actions, often spanning multiple touches to reach my goal. If I know my opponent is anxious, I'll be patient and just wait for the mistakes. I may go for a toe touch early, even if it may lose the point, to use it as a feint in multiple different situations later. I may start out frenetic, slow down and then pick up the pace again knowing my opponent won't change gears well.

So, every touch, I figure out how each of those categories contribute to the touch. Was my technique good/bad? Was my opponent's technique good or bad? Footwork? Bladework? Distance? What tactic was I employing at the time? Did the tactic work? Sometimes the tactic is right, but the execution is wrong, or vice versa. How does that touch fit in with my strategy? Do I need to change the strategy?

If you're just starting to analyze yourself and your opponent, I'd start at the small end (technique) and then work up to the bigger picture. Watch other bouts when you aren't fencing. Watch how they put a bout together. Watch both good fencers and bad fencers. Some bad to mediocre fencers have a good technique, but they're one trick ponies. Stop that technique and you can have an easy bout. Sometimes that's easier said than done if they're particularly good with that trick. Some with crappy technique have good tactics, and can be dangerous even though they can't lunge worth a damn.

Everyone has holes in each of these layers, and I find immense entertainment finding those holes, even when I can't take advantage of them.

I also find that I rarely choose the "I just need to do that action faster" tactic, because generally if I can go a bit faster, then my opponent can too. Sometimes, I choose the "I just need to do that action a little slower" because then it's more controlled, and it's like going from a 98 mph inside fastball to a knee-buckling 58 mph change-up.

Have fun with this part of the sport, because your brain will last longer than your knees.

[ysbadadden]

Originally Posted by yazzywazzy

Hmm... I've realized that I fence better when I zone out and really just not think about anything.

This is true for all of us, or almost all. The question is how we have learned to take in and process all those things we aren't thinking about. For a few of us -- I suspect, a very few -- the process is completely unconscious. For the rest of us, it's conscious, painstaking, and step-by-seep.

[tchwojko]

I also "zone out" of the technique parts of my fencing, and most of the tactical parts, but I'm still keeping an eye on the strategy. It's not muscle memory, it's being in the flow. It's a zen thing, I wouldn't understand.

[tchwojko]

And one more note, in pool bouts, when I lose, I try to make sure that I lost 5 different touches. I hate getting hit the same way twice. I'd like that to be the case in DE's, but that's more difficult.

edit: Not a very positive way to phrase that. Better is: when I lose a touch, I try to make sure it's different than the previous touches. There are generally tactical things that can be done to avoid getting hit the same way twice. That alone leads to wins.

[mrbiggs]

1. Fence a lot of people to figure out cues

2. Watch fencers who are a lot better than you fence. You don't want them to be so good that you can't follow exactly what they're doing, when they're doing it, and why it works, but you want them to use tactics that will make you improve.

3. Use the techniques you learned from better fencers on the people you fenced in #1, and once you can do them consistently and well, use them in competition.

This is how I've figured out ~90% of my tactics, and I suspect most fencers are in the same boat.

[bob46]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

1. Fence a lot of people to figure out cues

2. Watch fencers who are a lot better than you fence. You don't want them to be so good that you can't follow exactly what they're doing, when they're doing it, and why it works, but you want them to use tactics that will make you improve.

3. Use the techniques you learned from better fencers on the people you fenced in #1, and once you can do them consistently and well, use them in competition.

This is how I've figured out ~90% of my tactics, and I suspect most fencers are in the same boat.

Listening to your coach helps too... As long as you can understand him!

[counterattack]

Something I've realized is that what I think I m doing wrong, when I think about the touch immediately afterwards, is usually not what I am really doing wrong. I mean, I usually notice or remember something that was wrong, but when I get feedback from my teammates (sometimes the opponent) about what they saw or what they were keying on it is often something else entirely. It is impossible (times infinity) to self-analyze your actions properly. Your perception and your muscle memory get in the way. Use video, use coaches, use feedback from your practice opponents. You will find that some of them will be more helpful than others, but you can't say which until you've tried all of them. Some of my opponents are VERY insightful and willing to share. Some are willing to share but aren't insightful. Don't think this is something you can solve yourself inside your own head. Your brain is too occupied while fencing to notice 90% of what is going on. And half of what it notices it doesn't interpret properly.

-philip

[telkanuru]

Specifically thinking through certain actions ie. "I will feint, draw the counter, take it in 6, lunge, then redouble, then fleche" is pretty silly. There's simply too many vairables going on in any given bout for this to be useful.

However, saying to yourself "Ok, based on what just happened, as well as previous touches, what is (s)he expecting, what is (s)he wanting to do, and how can I use this against them" is mandatory. There is a natural progression to actions.

Just going blank won't get you very far.

[headcut]

Originally Posted by Delta

I've noticed when people zone out, they often turn to a "______ robot" (insert a particular forte or skill they rely on a lot). This is a great example of muscle memory, but I think this isn't always the best tactical choice, especially when you have smart opponent.

I admit I have an over-thinking problem (usually second-guessing myself and not committing to a single action at a time), but that's part of the Get Smart program I'm starting.

The fog problem during competition is also a problem. I rarely remember bouts/the final score....I'm definitely not the most lucid fencer.

I'm just wondering what you are thinking about when you are "over-thinking"? I suspect that you are either being very reflexive "in the moment" or you are really zoning out thinking about how to fence your opponent, because you're not remembering how you are getting touched.

In order to try remembering what is happening, try keeping your distance in practice as a "main weapon". I know you fence sabre and if you are mesmerized by the flashing blade as it comes in and you can't find it and don't know what is happening, chances are you are not controlling the distance. The actions of the blade look faster when you're not maintaining distance and someone closes the distance really quickly.

In a practice bout, try to keep the distance so that you DON'T have to parry. You will start to see what is happening more clearly and the blade work starts to slow down as your opponent tries to reach you. Your footwork needs to invite the attack, then be able to get you the h*ll out of there! You need to be in control always maintaining a distance just out of your opponent's reach after the "invite". Don't worry about getting touched or getting a touch. This is supposed to show you how the actions slow down with good distance work.

If you are not understanding what is happening tactically to you, look for a pattern. Good fencers can size up an opponent pretty quickly looking for anything to exploit then work it in as they set you up. Basically, what are your weaknesses? Be honest! Now how would a good fencer take advantage of that weakness? How would you set yourself up for the first touch? Second touch? Third?

[fatfencer]

If you know yourself enough to say that you aren't a 'lucid' fencer then you know that certain things in your brain chemistry and the way you use your brain aren't working for you.

Perhaps you are getting very mentally stressed? Just because it 'may feel' one way or another is you conscious mind masking what you see like Windows Media player has a skin.

People who say they become foggy in competitive environs(me, for example) have to stay very, VERY calm. AS calm as one gets looking at an Excel Spreadsheet.

Not tired, depressed, or disinterested, but like you saw something interesting for the first time. Your brain is engaged but not your flight/fight response.

When people complain of being foggy its because cortisol is being released thru your system. So when I fence I try to remember that I'm solving a problem so that the cortisol doesnt get released. An extreme example is the cortisol being dumped in a car accident.

Too much vasopressin, a memory hormone, can also cause mental detachment, disinterest and a general sluggishness.

I don't view fencing as fighting, but in my case years of training often overrides my mental response. I get huge surges of adrenalin and my pools usually suck. I have one lucid DE and the rest is a crapshoot.... and we know how a craps table can be a horrible little strumpet!!!

Anyways, you have to convince yourself that fencing is a fun thing to SOLVE Critically and your mind will follow quite naturally. However, if the footwork/handwork isn't at the level of unconscious competence you will have a hard time...a very hard, horsedookie time of it. That's what makes fencing challenging.

All the best,

Fatfencer

PS: Kogler's book helps alot with this. One touch at a time. Apply that method and your problems will disappear.

PPS: Try supplementing with gingko and herbs that enhance mental clarity but don't provide boosts like caffeine. Try and stay away from too much coffee. It tends to boost whatever you are feeling at the time....including fogginess and disinterested behavior.

[knave]

Fencing "smart" covers so many things. Two of the most important things are learning what state of mind you fence best in and how to stay there, and being able to analyze without overanalyzing actions as they happen.

For me, I fence best when I feel focused, serious, determined, and unafraid to lose touches. If I want to win against strong or quirky opponents, I need to avoid anger. I need to focus first on my ability to control each action, and then actively try and control the action. When I find that I'm getting angry or starting to think I'm going to lose, I try and focus on just controlling how the next touche happens, not whether or not I get it. That forces me to focus on my fencing and the bout, which I can control, not my success, which is much harder to control. But that's really different for everyone. Some people can really use emotion to ride to victory, some need to remain very calm. Some zone out. Depends on what works for you.

As to analyzing touches, I think it's important not to over analyze--particuarly in a bout, between touches. If you think through actions in your head, and try and figure exactly where something went wrong, or try and step through a particular pre-planned sequence ("feint head-cut with advance, cut flank with lunge") it is very difficult to execute at the variable (and not directly in your control) speed of your opponent.

I prefer to do a quick analysis of my fault or his fault. After every touche, even ones I get, I quickly consider did I do something right, if my opponent did something right, or which of us was more wrong.

If I did something right (a good action, well executed, at proper distance, etc.), then I will either go back to that action, or try and use that action to set up a new one.

If my opponent did something right (a good action, well executed, at proper distance, etc.), I will either try and draw same from him and make it fail, or if I really don't like that action, I will try and take it away from him by not allowing him to set up that particular action.

If it doesn't feel like either of us was "right", then I try and feel who was more wrong. If I was more wrong, either technically, or tactically, I may try and set the situation up correctly again and use either better technique or a different tactical response to my opponent. If my opponent was more wrong, likely my own action wasn't very good and I either need to correct a technical fault or make a smarter tactical choice in case my opponent realizes he is being stupid and fixes his mistake.

[D'Art]

If you've been fencing around 4 years (as your profile claims), it would probably be worthwhile scouring youtube for videos of Olympics and Worlds and see what the top guys do, and try to work out why they do them. Don't just watch the videos, actually sit and analyse them, preferably with your coach or a high level fencer if you have one handy, and discuss your conclusions with them. Aside from getting yourself to think about it more, it also gives you an insight into how others think. Pretty much the same as asking your opponent why they were hitting you, and what they were looking for, if they've just beaten you to a pulp.

If you're at a tournament, stay until the end and take notes or even better, videos of what they do for the same reasons.

All this is just in general terms at the moment. In time you'll start to automatically make more adjustments to tactics and technique as you become more experienced. Also, try getting tactical lessons from your coach. They really have helped me, but then, that may just be because I'm a freak and actually enjoy them.

[Phrogger]

Originally Posted by Delta

I aspire to be smarter fencer, but I'm not understanding touches the way I should be at my level. I don't mind being hit, but I want to understand why I was hit that particular way and learn from it.I have a difficult time processing and making the connection between "what happened right before I was hit" to " what would be the most logical way to disrupt this from happening again" between touches.

I think I know what you're talking about, it happens to me, too. What has been most helpful to me is to take notes after each competition bout (you can do this in practice, too). Try to remember the actions and write as much detail as you can remember. Not only is this a tactical help the next time you fence this person, but the very act of remembering the bout in detail makes you more attentive to the actions while they're happening.

You can also have someone (a coach or friend) watch your bouts and comment on the actions. Videotaping yourself (have a friend or family member do this) at a tournament is also valuable for study. Though it may not help you in that tournament (unless you review it between brackets), it may reveal deficiencies or repeat offenses on your part. Again, reviewing and re-living your bouts will make you more attentive to detail in the future.