Need Help Please

[thekoby]

PS.... Keep letting your president wear women's* jackets for all pictures and for fencing at tournaments. It'll help keep your spirits up.

*Women's jackets have tailoring for breasts. Notice the front seams on his jacket in the pic and how it looks like he has boobs.... bingo!

unfortunately he purchased his own jacket and is wearing that now.....however, I'll have to take a good look at it and see if it has those seams in the front ;-)

[Cardinalred]

I've been fencing for nearly five years and this past class session, I was asked from time to time to step in for our coach to teach the students (being the senior member of the club) when he had other obligations with work that came up. I gotta tell you, nearly five years of fencing and I still didn't feel equal to the task. Of course, I'm a saber guy so on any given day I'm doing good just to hold a damn foil properly! Lol. The point here is though: 7 months is NOT enough experience to be teaching ANYONE unless it was all spent at coach's college. At that stage of the game, he's still learning the basics himself! I'm with other members of this board in scratching my head and trying to figure out A) How HE was elected president and B) why none of the other experienced fencers have stepped in to say "slow your roll, party animal!" and simmer him down. Being president of a club doesn't make him the dictator and it doesn't mean he can go around and call anyone and everyone out and get his way...and he WILL get his way so long as the rest of the club members continue to be so non-confrontational about it which is how it sounds to me.

Hey, I understand. I mean, nobody likes the idea of creating a ruckus or even POSSIBLY creating a ruckus. It's easier to give into a brat and let them get their way to shut them up than it is to try and teach them the errors of their way with the threat of even more trouble in doing so...even though what's best in the long run is to teach them the errors of their way. Now, I'm not saying you should go in there and be a jerk about it, throwin' the book down and saying "Now just hold your horses!" but you SHOULD raise the issue and beat the drum a little louder and highlight the underlying issue...and from my perspective, that issue is what's in the best issue for the club and this guy's lack of experience. For god's sake man, he didn't even have his own jacket for a club photo! Who's going to teach a fencing class that doesn't have their own set of whites!? So just go in there, as coach, and put your foot down on this issue. Do it in a manner that will get the other more experienced fencers behind you, not by being a jerk...but for god's sake man do SOMETHING! Don't just stand there and let the guy get his way and cause all kinds of long term harm.

At any case, I clicked the link and he looks like a dweeb. I haven't fenced a foil bout in a couple of years, but I still bet I could take him.

[whiteandbluefencer]

This actually doesn't work since we don't have a set armory room on campus. All of our equipment is stored in a shared Rec equipment room that is maintained by Ball State staff. They will go through the equipment over the summer and condense as they see fit, often putting all of our jackets, plastron, and knickers into one bag, forcing us to resort them every year. So we just basically stopped sorting by jacket type to save time.

Oh, I would never put up with that! That sucks! We share a space too (the closet of the dance studio where we practice), but no one touches our stuff. We have a nice rack where jackets being used by current members are hung. The lames are up their too, although separated. Those that aren't being used are clean and folded nicely into two large plastic tubs. We have a large rack with several rows where the masks can hang. And there are to cabinets, one for electric equipment (pad locked) and another for bags full of weapons. Course, I will admit that my college is much smaller than yours with only 2,100 students. This makes for a different atmosphere with regards to everything.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I'm gonna rock the boat a little--

So what if he's in charge of the beginner class?

Based on you and your website, it seems like it's not unusual for people to be in the club for at least 4 years, if not more.

How long is your beginner class? A semester? How much do you teach that gets absorbed in that period of time? How much has to be retaught because they're not doing it right at the end of that time anyway?

I know coaches who can fix people in a very short span, or start from scratch and have fencers go from nothing to a strong local fencer in months. But these people are unusual, and when faced with a school setting rather than a private club setting, even they're not as effective.

As long as the beginners are having fun and don't get hurt, does it really matter? In my experience, a huge number of people that you can convince to try fencing won't continue--- it's not as easy as most seem to think. It's more athletic. It hurts sometimes. So does it really matter who's in charge?


The only time I ever said anything to my college coach about the beginning bits of the year were not when I thought we were working out to hard to early, or when I thought things might be better in a different order.... The only time I ever said anything was when I thought the newbies weren't having enough fun. And he fixed it, too.


Oh, and Photoshop and Illustrator are for two very different things. I had access to photoshop for much longer than illustrator, so I'll still use photoshop for most things..... But Illustrator does have its strengths.

[Cardinalred]

God that was an eye opener, Myrddin! Speaking of which, I'm kind of feeling the same thing about our newbies in our club's classes. I'm not sure how to go about making it more fun for them, though, while still teaching the basics.

[Fencergrl]

God that was an eye opener, Myrddin! Speaking of which, I'm kind of feeling the same thing about our newbies in our club's classes. I'm not sure how to go about making it more fun for them, though, while still teaching the basics.

Post your question in the "Coaching Corner" portion of the forum. Make sure you indicate the age of the fencers. I am certain you will get some great answers from a number of experienced coaches.

[MdA]

Facinating.

This is pure gold.

Tell Mark he's wearing a women's jacket.

Does anyone get paid for teaching the beginner classes?

This what I bin talkin' about.

[MdA]

I was laughing so hard yesterday when I saw the picture of your club President (in the woman’s jacket) that I couldn’t offer anything constructive. But, today I was thinking about your situation and it took me back in time.

We all come to coaching in different ways…many of us never intend to become coaches, much less Masters. I fenced for nine years before I started coaching. I was in a varsity high school program and then in a varsity collegiate program so I never had to teach beginners in my early years. All I had to do was concentrate on my own fencing. I started coaching a little my senior year, when I was team captain but not much more than a few words of advice to my junior teammates. Of course, as team captain, I led warm-ups, stretching and footwork drills…so in a way I guess I was already learning to coach. When I left the Academy, after my last year of college fencing I thought I was done. I turned in my gear at the armory, and I remember the coach asked me if I wanted to keep anything in case I wanted to fence in the future. I told him to keep it all because in my mind I was done….that’s a story for another time.

When I got to my first assignment in Cheyenne, Wyoming, I got a call from the AD at the local community college. He called F.E. Warren Air Force Base to see if there was any officer with fencing experience. He needed someone to teach the fencing classes at Laramie County Community College. Now this AD was a retired Air Force officer who had been an instructor at the AF Academy. At least he recognized that he needed someone with some training to teach his fencing class. There was a local dentist on the College Board who had been teaching the classes but they were looking for someone with more experience to take over. I took the job because I needed the money.

During the first semester, most of my students quit because I ran class like a varsity practice. The dentist told me I needed to tone down the work-outs (less physical) and make them more fun. This is the first time I realized that I might need some help learning to teach fencing. Learning to fence, is different than learning to teach fencing. I lightened up the classes, made them more fun and we all had a good time for the next four years. I am proud to say that I had a few successful fencers that went on to bigger and better things.

Here is my advice: The coach should be the most experienced fencer in you club. The best coach in the club should be coaching the beginner’s class. This might be different if you have elite national/international level fencers in you club…but that does not appear to be the case in your situation. I noticed that you have an E2004 rating. I suggest that you take this time to concentrate on your own fencing. In order to be a successful coach I believe you must achieve at least a “C” rating in the USFA. This will get you to a level where you can actually incorporate higher level technical and tactical skills.

That being said…there are plenty of examples of successful coaches with no fencing experience.

When I was fencing in high school there was a coach at Main South Township in Chicago…actually it was Park Ridge. He was a teacher at the school with no fencing experience. All he did was show up (on time) for practices, open up the equipment room, and observe practices for safety and enforce school rules. He scheduled/hosted the competitions, drove the bus, hired competent referees, and got the fencers to competition. He made fencing available to his fencers. There is a lot to be said for this kind of coach/manager. Some of the fencers took private lessons from Master Allen January at the Leaning Tower YMCA. Main South was always a force in Illinois high school fencing in those days. Many of their fencers went on to successful college varsity careers, Jim Herring (Wisconsin-Parkside), Mark Snow (Illinois), and Andy Bonk (1980 NCAA Foil Champion at Notre Dame).

Make the best fencing wherever you are with whatever you have….keep the best interests of the fencers in the front of your mind at all times. Be safe.

[thekoby]

I I noticed that you have an E2004 rating.

I actually have my E2008 in foil and epee. I would have had my C2008 in epee but the tournament I went to got bumped from an A2 to a B1 during DEs. I was rather upset (as was my former coach who was going for his A - he ended up renewing his B).

[whiteandbluefencer]

Make the best fencing wherever you are with whatever you have….keep the best interests of the fencers in the front of your mind at all times.

I couldn't have said it better myself! This situation isn't about what's unfair to you (not that you said this), but what is unfair to the other fencers. If they're not successful, than the club is failing. I'm one of the most active members of my college club, but I would sit out of every practice and every tournament if that's what it took for the rest of the fencers in my club to succeed. Thankfully though, I don't have to go to that extreme.

[oiuyt]

How long is your beginner class? A semester? How much do you teach that gets absorbed in that period of time? How much has to be retaught because they're not doing it right at the end of that time anyway?

Each basics class will last six weeks and a new class will start every seven weeks for anyone interested in starting late in the semester.

I actually have my E2008 in foil and epee. I would have had my C2008 in epee but the tournament I went to got bumped from an A2 to a B1 during DEs. I was rather upset (as was my former coach who was going for his A - he ended up renewing his B).

It's not possible for a potential A2 competition to become a B1 during DE's.

A quick search of FRED and we find the competition in question had 23 entries. As such, the MAXIMUM level it can achieve is an A1. An 8th place in an A1 results in earning an "E" classification. To earn a C you would have had to place top-4, even before the second A lost in the 16 (15-3).

On the other hand, if the tournament had had 2 more "warm-body" fencers you'd have your D now...

-B

[Allen Evans]

His statement to the club members was that I was unreliable as an instructor. This basically came about during a 2-month period where I lost my job, my car died and I couldn't afford a new one, and my girlfriend left me. I believe I had a few good excuses for not being able to get to every parctice (considering I lived 30 minutes away).

I'll rock the boat a little bit here...

How many classes/practices did you miss during this two month period? One? Three? All of them? If you didn't show during a practice, did the students have an alternative appointed by you, or were they (or someone else) left on their own to wing it?

If this had been a paying job, would a potential employer have looked the other way during these absences?

AE

[bb43]

That being said…there are plenty of examples of successful coaches with no fencing experience.

When I was fencing in high school there was a coach at Main South Township in Chicago…actually it was Park Ridge. He was a teacher at the school with no fencing experience. All he did was show up (on time) for practices, open up the equipment room, and observe practices for safety and enforce school rules. He scheduled/hosted the competitions, drove the bus, hired competent referees, and got the fencers to competition. He made fencing available to his fencers. There is a lot to be said for this kind of coach/manager. Some of the fencers took private lessons from Master Allen January at the Leaning Tower YMCA. Main South was always a force in Illinois high school fencing in those days. Many of their fencers went on to successful college varsity careers, Jim Herring (Wisconsin-Parkside), Mark Snow (Illinois), and Andy Bonk (1980 NCAA Foil Champion at Notre Dame).

Make the best fencing wherever you are with whatever you have….keep the best interests of the fencers in the front of your mind at all times. Be safe.

The one flaw however is that the Maine South fencing program no longer exists. Was this due to the lack of a knowledgeable coach? I don't know.

However I do know that the Maine West team is in a similar situation. The one head coach is experienced in foil only, and epee and sabre is left to rely on senior members for instruction. Oddly enough, the schools weakest weapon is foil.

It is possible to thrive without elite coaching? yes. Is it in the best interests of the club to have the most inexperienced member teaching the beginners class? probably not.

[MdA]

...However I do know that the Maine West team is in a similar situation. The one head coach is experienced in foil only, and epee and sabre is left to rely on senior members for instruction. Oddly enough, the schools weakest weapon is foil.

It is possible to thrive without elite coaching? yes. Is it in the best interests of the club to have the most inexperienced member teaching the beginners class? probably not.

If this coach's foil experience is "bad" experience, then the foil fencing will be bad....the fencers are probably better off on their own as you note with epee and sabre.

My high school, Gordon Tech, no longer has fencing. I think this is related more to a lack of commitment by the AD...because this will effect the quality of the coaching...note my story about the Community College in Cheyenne.

The level of the beginners coach depends on the objectives of the club. If the objective is to bring lots of new fencers in the door...than you better have your best foot forward. If you want to develop champions...then your best coach will be busy with the advanced fencers....most collegiate clubs are in a position where they must do both...so the best coach or coaches should do a little of both.

[telkanuru]

From the look of your president, he needs the woman's jacket for his moobs anyway.

I notice you mentioned there are other officers. Why not use them to influence events, unless you give your president omnipotence?

[MdA]

These days...most volunteer organizations are very hard pressed to get their volunteer officers to do anything...my experience with the USFA/USFCA is proof...

[whiteandbluefencer]

I notice you mentioned there are other officers. Why not use them to influence events, unless you give your president omnipotence?

I agree, the president should not me above reproach. Make sure you've approached the other officers.

These days...most volunteer organizations are very hard pressed to get their volunteer officers to do anything...

How true this is! This is where the organization of the club is essential. But another thing that's important, is making sure that all the officers know how they impact the rest of the club.

[thekoby]

the problem with this president is that he's heard about flaws with the club in the past, or observed issues during his first year and is eager to fix them all at one time. The problem is that he, like many other officers that came before him, is not listening to the advice and warnings being given to him by all the senior members.n He's rather headstrong in his beliefs that his actions will ultimately turn the club completely around and build membership and revenue for new equipment (i.e. a piste and at least one updated score box).

[aamct2]

Trying to do too much at once is extremely difficult and can be problematic. However, you can accomplish quite a lot if you have enough time on your hands to put towards the club, especially if you support his efforts and not fight him (except when need be).

Just because you're not president or the beginner's coach, doesn't mean you can't be the leader in planning/executing some of the ideas. Other senior members will follow your lead, and I suspect you'll be able to accomplish most of the things you mentioned. It'll be a lot of work, but you can do it if you work together.

[SJCFU#2]

The problem is that he, like many other officers that came before him, is not listening to the advice and warnings being given to him by all the senior members.n He's rather headstrong in his beliefs that his actions will ultimately turn the club completely around and build membership and revenue for new equipment (i.e. a piste and at least one updated score box).

Much as I hate to say it, it sounds like the best thing to do might be to step back and let him try to solve all the world's problems himself. He may prove extremely capable and solve all these problems in a matter of months (in which case the USFA should probably consider hiring him). More likely he will learn that things aren't that simple and heopfully come to realize that if all those problems were that simple then they probably would have been solved long ago.

Keep tabs on things, the better to help with recovery, but try to avoid any direct involvement lest you be branded a scapegoat. And maybe start preparing the club to survive following your own inevitable departure (sooner or later outside forces will conspire and you will forced to move on).