Usoc & Usfa - B

[jjefferies]

Many pardons, but the original thread had drifted so far and was so long that I thought it worth starting a second so the following could get out. If Craig wishes to fold this into the original I won't whine.

Spoke with Tracy Hurley at SN and she passed the attached document to me with her comments. She believes the document is public information as it has already been sent to Nancy Anderson and Michael Massik and the board.

"You may ask why was this letter forwarded to Tracy and not Nancy Anderson or other Board members? Well, from what Edward (the attorney) told me was that I was the only one they could find an email address for (and who replied to their email) as well as answered the phone. I had emailed the parent (below) several times a couple of weeks ago after he sent me an email detailing his problem with the USFA. I gave him some advice (but I have to say, I did not recommend this strategy).

Evidently, a parent of a child (named in the noncompliance letter) who lives in California could not get any satisfaction (or a reply to numerous emails and voice mails) with the USFA for almost a year after his son incurred a fencing injury. One thing led to another and this is the result.

This letter was forwarded to both Massik and several USOC members -- evidently the attorney was an Olympic biathlon athlete once upon a time and has contacts at the USOC. The attorney, however, could not find any email addresses for the USFA Board of Directors or Executive Committee members so he forwarded the document to me. "

[Allen Evans]

Is this news? I thought there had been a number of discussions about the USFA not complying with USOC guidelines* concerning our by-laws, the argument being that the USFA felt that USOC guidelines were not advantageous to the organizational** model the USFA had.

I'm not necessary sure how this approach by the attorney in any way furthers a possible greivence by his client(s) against the USFA?



AE

*"Guidelines" being the operative word here, rather than "Law" or "Regulation".

**Obviously, in the current climate, I'm using the word "organization" somewhat loosely.

[seak]

Can someone clue me in here? Why is the Tate family doing this?

Honestly, on general principle I have a lot of problems with the USOC mandating specific forms for membership organizations. When it comes to governance one size does not fit all.*


Now the USOC structure might be better then our current one, this is a process comment not meant to be an endorsement or criticism of any particular format

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Is this news? I thought there had been a number of discussions about the USFA not complying with USOC guidelines* concerning our by-laws, the argument being that the USFA felt that USOC guidelines were not advantageous to the organizational** model the USFA had.

I've followed a few discussions regarding this subject on f.net. But I don't believe I've seen them laid out before as a legal document. In that sense it is news or if you prefer a useful outline of what needs to be taken care of. Current thinking is that the USOC has a short range (<50 day) plan for the USFA prior to and including the Olympics themselves. But there is the other shoe waiting to drop which will be post-Olympic "discussions" in which the shortcomings mentioned in the document will be front and center. And as has been mentioned previously a critical component is the performance of fencers in the Olympics. If they do well there may be an arguing point that the USFA as presently constituted is producing results. IF not then why not start from scratch?

But just as interesting is why this document was presented to Tracy Hurley. Apparently the plaintiff's lawyers couldn't find anyone at the USFA to accept their communications and respond to them. Now that says a lot. Michael Massik is still on staff - isn't he? Nancy Anderson is still president isn't she? Doesn't the USFA still have legal representation? And none of them would respond? Ok, so this isn't news either. But it certainly is proof of previous complaints. One wonders if we are seeing a total meltdown of the USFA's management? If so then there may not be a need for post Olympic discussions.

[Allen Evans]

Every Corporation has a registered agent in a position to accept legal filings and notices at a fixed address. Sometimes this is an officer of the corporation (in which case, the address is probably the One Olympic Plaza address) or there are services that provide registered agents for a fee.

I suspect that if the authors really had a legal complaint to make, they would have been able to find someone to recieve a legal document.

Giving a non-legal document to someone who isn't even an officer of the corporation involved seems to be just a silly attempt to cause trouble and grandstand*.

AE



*While I work for a law firm, this is my own opinion. I am not a lawyer and my postings should not be taken as a legal opinion.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by seak

Can someone clue me in here? Why is the Tate family doing this?

Honestly, on general principle I have a lot of problems with the USOC mandating specific forms for membership organizations. When it comes to governance one size does not fit all.*


Now the USOC structure might be better then our current one, this is a process comment not meant to be an endorsement or criticism of any particular format

I believe it is Tait and I have no information on the injury to their son physical or otherwise. I believe they are from Sacramento (Mtn. Valley Division) and the son is a D07 in saber.

One thing new that I came away from reading the document that I hadn't had sufficiently impressed upon me previously is that much of the "mandating" falls out of US Federal law i.e. Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, Title 36, US Code Sections 22051 as well as the USOC bylaws for organizations recognized as NGB's.

Yeah, I'm having a hard time with it too, Seak.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

:deleted some sensible comments
I suspect that if the authors really had a legal complaint to make, they would have been able to find someone to recieve a legal document.

Giving a non-legal document to someone who isn't even an officer of the corporation involved seems to be just a silly attempt to cause trouble and grandstand*.
AE
*While I work for a law firm, this is my own opinion. I am not a lawyer and my postings should not be taken as a legal opinion.

I would agree. It could be the opening action to something else. But it does come at a particularly awkward time for the USFA given the USOC's recent actions. I/We don't know all of what is going on. Perhaps it's something as trivial as getting their way with a local club or Division board. Or perhaps there was some real injury and this is preliminary to a real lawsuit. You might be in a better position to hazard a guess as to their second intentions.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

But just as interesting is why this document was presented to Tracy Hurley. Apparently the plaintiff's lawyers couldn't find anyone at the USFA to accept their communications and respond to them.

1) Hearsay. In fact, hearsay of hearsay. Testimony is excluded.

2) We are to believe what a plaintiff's lawyer says is necessarily the truth, the whole truth, so help me God?!

I have a co-worker who's been testifying in a criminal trial oer the past few weeks. His wife also testified eventually, but originally the defendant's lawyer tried to claim that she couldn't be located or contacted. They have lived at the same address for over 15 years.

They would call when she was at work, leave messages, she'd call back, get their answering machine, leave messages, never get called back except during working hours again. They never tried the mail. They never tried speaking to her husband about her when he was 10 feet away from them at the courthouse.

Convenient, eh? "Oh, she's dodging us, what must she have to hide?"

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

One thing new that I came away from reading the document that I hadn't had sufficiently impressed upon me previously is that much of the "mandating" falls out of US Federal law i.e. Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act, Title 36, US Code Sections 22051 as well as the USOC bylaws for organizations recognized as NGB's.

Having never heard of it, I looked it up. The Ted Stevens act seems to be an incremental modernization of a 1978 act. While the wikipedia article is fairly lean, it does imply this act is around because people asked for it. (And possibly an example of regulation may be bad, but no regulation can be worse.)

Who knew?

W

[Montoya]

Skimming this rather mind numbing legal document, I wondered how many hours were billed to Mr. Tait and what he ultimately hopes to achieve. While we all know that fencing can cost silly amounts of money - and that some parents will spend silly amounts of money on the extracurricular activities of fairly young chlldren - this brings hobby costs to all all-new high (or low, if you prefer). While I have also been frustrated at times by the National Office, most of the time I do get an answer to my questions, especially if I time them around the NAC schedules and make sure I direct them to the appropriate person.

Even if the USFA conformed to USOC NGB guidelines - and balanced its budget - and somehow found $$$ to increase staff to 15 or 16 - it is unlikely that phone calls or emails are going to be answered with the turnaround that is expected in the business world.

Some years ago (and before electronic medical records systems were widely available), I saw a self-important, wealthy businessman (new patient to me) as a same day emergency for a bad infection (didn't have room in the schedule, but stayed late to see him). He had plans to leave for the other side of the country in 4 or 5 days. I again made room for him in my schedule 2 days later, to make sure that he was responding to treatment and would be able to travel. He felt much, much better. We discussed the importance of completing his antibiotics. The next day I left the country. That weekend, he patient paged my partner from California, because he left his antibiotics on the East Coast. He had no idea what medicine he was taking. The office was closed, and my partner would have had to leave the hospital (where he was seeing patients), drive 20 minutes, and pull the man's chart. The patient was outraged, OUTRAGED that his medical records were not available to the on-call doctor 24/7. "I would never stand for this in my organization," he lectured my sage, gray haired colleague.

I think that many people are addicted to the instantaneous gratifications of email and cell phone use, and are unable to tolerate ANY delay.

[epeelion]

Well, from what Edward (the attorney) told me was that I was the only one they could find an email address for (and who replied to their email) as well as answered the phone.

Am I missing something? I got a personal call back from Michael Massik a few days after I left a message about a random question. I have always gotten timely responses by emailing info@usfencing.org

And hopefully I misunderstood, but is the lawyer saying he couldn't find email addresses for the National Office?

National Office



United States Fencing Association

One Olympic Plaza

Colorado Springs, CO 80909-5774

Phone: (719) 866-4511

Fax: (719) 632-5737

General Email: info@USFencing.org



Michael Massik, Executive Director

Email: michael.massik@usfencing.org



Nancy Brown, Administrative Assistant

Email: info@usfencing.org



National Events



Christine Strong Simmons, Associate Executive Director

Email: christine.simmons@usfencing.org



Ashley Razo, Manager of National Events

Email: ashley.razo@usfencing.org



Membership



Dana Brown, Director of Membership

Email: dana.brown@usfencing.org



International Programs and High Performance



Jeanna Mendoza, Director of Sport Technical Programs

Email: jeanna.mendoza@usfencing.org

Email: international@usfencing.org



Jim Carpenter, Director of High Performance

Email: jim.carpenter@usfencing.org



Andrea Lagan, Director of Sport Performance

Email: andrea.lagan@usfencing.org



Finance and Accounting



Tana Isgar, Business Services Coordinator

Email: tana.isgar@usfencing.org



US Fencing Media Coordinator



Webmaster

Email: melissa.baylor@usfencing.org

Wasn't exactly hard...

[sheck]

Originally Posted by epeelion

And hopefully I misunderstood, but is the lawyer saying he couldn't find email addresses for the National Office?

I believe EC and BODs.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by epeelion

Am I missing something? I got a personal call back from Michael Massik a few days after I left a message about a random question.

Now that is unusual. As Division Chair for one of the largest Divisions in the country I couldn't get timely responses. And when I did get an answer from Mr. Massik it basically said, "Don't bother us".

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Now that is unusual. As Division Chair for one of the largest Divisions in the country I couldn't get timely responses. And when I did get an answer from Mr. Massik it basically said, "Don't bother us".

[Emphasis mine]

You were elected chair of NE Division? NJ? Long Island??

seems kind of odd given your location...

as for the responses, I'd guess it may have had to do with what you were asking and the way you were asking it (though I'm just surmising from the tactful way you've conducted yourself on this board ).

-m

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

[Emphasis mine]

You were elected chair of NE Division? NJ? Long Island??

Or he could have been elected chair of the Alaska Division, which, I believe, is "larger" than all the divisions you mentioned combined.

Or were you talking about something else?

(laughing) you should probably take a breath, EpeeMike. He did partially qualify his statement, and it wasn't the main point of his post.

Allen Evnas

[fleuretrogue]

here here! couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by epeemike81

[Emphasis mine]

You were elected chair of NE Division? NJ? Long Island??

seems kind of odd given your location...

as for the responses, I'd guess it may have had to do with what you were asking and the way you were asking it (though I'm just surmising from the tactful way you've conducted yourself on this board ).

-m

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

[Emphasis mine]
You were elected chair of NE Division? NJ? Long Island??
seems kind of odd given your location...
as for the responses, I'd guess it may have had to do with what you were asking and the way you were asking it (though I'm just surmising from the tactful way you've conducted yourself on this board ).
-m

Hey epeemike81 you definitely shouldn't be casting aspersions on anyone else's tact. But just for your curiousity, at the time I was Division Chair for Northern California. And I believe it is one of the larger Divisions in the USFA. D*mn, there I go responding from a troll especially one from a nithling.

And with regards to Mr. Massik, one question was a rather simple one dealing with who should a question about details about sanctioning of a series of youth tournaments be directed to (I never received a response and later grabbed Carla-Mae Richards at a NAC and got a reasonable answer from her. Long after it was needed). My point however is that communications from the national office and specifically Michael Massik have been extremely poor. A point that others besides myself have complained about.

P.S. You should open your mind to the concept that there are other parts of the country besides NY and the N.E. (My apologies if I'm lumping too many parts of the NY region together).

[alexsmom]

1) maybe the family is looking for help with medical expenses....aren't USFA members insured as part of membership?
2) maybe they spotted deficiencies in the system: no one wanted to hear their request for help?
3) in light of recent concerns, perhaps they perceived problems with the organization?

They seemed polite enough to send a letter, not a threat.

A lot of people in my area are so concerned about the future of USFA they are waiting until the last minute to renew memberships.

There has got to be a better way. It appears USFA has deficient by-laws, don't follow their own deficient by-laws, are losing money, cannot manage themselves, are not marketing Olympic wins at all, and seem to be a bit of a dictatorship. I understand that some/many on the BOD are not even fencers. That might be ok for some positions, but certainly not leadership. The letter also indicates there are too many so-called "committees." We can do better. Just ask Coach Korfanty and the Olympic fencers who had to fight to get paid/reimbursed.

p.s. want to whine/complain/b***h about me, go for attacking me privately, thank u very much. Especially those of you from the Hub of The Universe.

[KD5MDK]

Given we haven't had any Olympic wins in nearly 4 years, it will be a little while before we market any new ones.

I understand that some/many on the BOD are not even fencers.

That's extremely interesting. The majority of the people on the Board I know of are fencing coaches, if you were to pick a common trait.