Women Coaching: The Future

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


From the points lists standings:

Originally Posted by USFA ratings list

Rank Name Point Total %of total points Square%
1 Ward, Rebecca 17003 21.3 453.69
2 Jacobson, Sada 16636 20.9 436.89
3 Zagunis, Mariel 14884 18.7 349.69
4 Wozniak, Dagmara 8910 11.2 125.44
5 Baratta, Emma 5971 7.5 56.25
6 Vloka, Caroline 5730 7.2 51.84
7 Schneider, Daria 3369 4.2 17.24
8 Thompson, Caitlin 3317 4.2 17.24
9 Hassett, Eileen 1902 2.4 5.76
10 Muhammad, Ibtihaj1893 2.4 5.76

(Here, text in bold is taken from the USFA website, I have added the 2 columns to the right.)

Note that there is fierce competition for the #1, 5, 7, and 9 spot, but all of those are 2-way competitions. Only the #3-4 are in no-mans land, as it were.
I excluded those outside the top-10, solely because that would be too much calculations. I know, this is not the whole picture and I am skewing the results, but: none of those below the top-10 have any realistic chance of making the National team in the short run. Let´s see what the Herfindahl index works out to among these 10.

They have earned a total of 79615 points. Of those, the #1 Ward has earned 21.3%, and so on for the rest. If one adds up the squares for all ten, one gets a sum of 1509.8. This a fairly concentrated "market", the border between moderate and high concentration is set at 1800.

If one fencer would have gotten every single point, then the Herfindahl index would have been 10000. Considering that it is possible to corner a market completly, but impossible to take 100% of the points, the comparison in not perfect, and this index underestimates the true concentration. A better measure might have been the % of bouts won by the fencer who has the better points total, since that measure can reach 100%, in which case no single bout ever is an upset.

Let us compare this the the value for the men´s sabre:

Originally Posted by USFA ratings list

Rank Name Point Total %of total points Square%
1 Smart, Keeth 10553 17.6 309.76
2 Morehouse, Timothy 10386 17.4 302.76
3 Rogers, Jason 7453 12.5 156.25
4 Williams, James 6213 10.4 108.16
5 Lee, Ivan 6063 10.1 102.01
6 Ghattas, Patrick 5890 9.9 98.01
7 Igoe, Benjamin 5867 9.8 96.04
8 Homer, Daryl 2730 4.6 21.16
9 Hagamen, Timothy 2728 4.6 21.16
10 Zuck, Avery 1910 3.2 10.24

Note that there is fierce competition for the #1, and 9 spot, #4-7 are practically neck to neck, and nor far behind #3.

They have earned a total of 59793 points. Of those, the #1 Smart has earned 17.6%, a bit lower than Becca´s haul. If one adds up the squares for all ten, one gets a sum of 1225.55. This is 19% less than the Herfindahl index of WS.

Conclusion: Competition success appears to be about 20% less concentrated among the men compared to the women in US. sabre fencing.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

What?

Where is the sunny Fgrl that I have come to get used to, and what did you do to hijack her account?

You do realize that I never miss an opportunity to tease Mr. E? So you don't need to defend him... besides I'm more afraid of his Mrs... Being Finnish and all... she's likely to have a great body check...

[Fencergrl]

I can't believe Mr. E had a point with that comment. I should have known better. I appreciate you stepping in an explaining it. Lord knows being married to a man who studied electrical engineering I don't get nearly enough math and physics in my life.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Conclusion: Competition success appears to be about 20% less concentrated among the men compared to the women in US. sabre fencing.

Peter Gustafsson

Let me see if I understand you. So are you saying there are fewer women with high level competition experience...and that is the reason there are fewer women coaches?

Or is it the fact that there are just fewer women fencers?

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by MdA

Let me see if I understand you.

Not even close.

Originally Posted by MdA

So are you saying there are fewer women with high level competition experience...and that is the reason there are fewer women coaches?

Or is it the fact that there are just fewer women fencers?

It is 23:24 here, if you have not posted a better understanding within a few days I will rephrase.


Have a nice time!

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by MdA

Let me see if I understand you. So are you saying there are fewer women with high level competition experience...and that is the reason there are fewer women coaches?

Or is it the fact that there are just fewer women fencers?

Fencergrl dug up a post Mr. Epee made a long time ago about men's sports vs. women's sports. Mr. Epee then responded by offering his current viewpoint on the subject matter. Peter then took the new point, and ran the data, which is somewhat contradictory to Mr. Epee's stance from several years ago.


It wasn't a commentary on the current thread at all.

Thread drift!!! Look for it everywhere....

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by MdA

Let me see if I understand you.

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Not even close.

Oops... that came out wrong. =>PG

Lesson: do not post when one is overly tired, because one write without nuances then.

Originally Posted by MdA

So are you saying there are fewer women with high level competition experience...and that is the reason there are fewer women coaches?

I was not referring to relatives numbers of coaches or competitors among men and women.

I was claiming that the competitive success is more concentrated among women than among men. I said absolutely nothing about why it is so. I suspect that it is due to the smaller number of female fencers, but that assumption is neither backed up, nor weakened, by the calculation results.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

Fencergrl dug up a post Mr. Epee made a long time ago about men's sports vs. women's sports. Mr. Epee then responded by offering his current viewpoint on the subject matter. Peter then took the new point, and ran the data, which is somewhat contradictory to Mr. Epee's stance from several years ago.

What contradiction are you referring to? I am completely mystified.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

Hi!




What contradiction are you referring to? I am completely mystified.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

By your calculations, Women's sabre is more competitive than men's sabre, and therefore more interesting.

However, several years ago, Mr. Epee was of the opinion that men's athletics are more interesting.

Having not read the thread in it's entirety perhaps -ever- and certainly not recently, he may have made an exception for women's sabre, but it's certainly not obvious from the title of the previous thread.

[cylucente]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

A more important question might me: "Why does this requirement exist in women's gymnastics?"

AE

It might have something to do with the age of the athletes since most of the girls are under the age of 18, and gymnastics is no stranger to scandals involving coach/student relations. I'm completely guessing, but that's the only thing I could come up with. After watching the gymnastics and the Olympic qualification path/new scoring, I am convinced they have managed to make gymnastics more complicated than fencing.

On the subject of women coaches, it has been pointed out repeatedly that tennis has a startling lack of women coaches, even among the women's players. The only ones I know of are Katarina Srebotnik's coach, the Williams' sisters mother (she does list herself as a coach from time to time), and Novak Djokovic started out with a woman coach as a child. She predicted that he would be in the top 3 by 19. He was 20 when this happened - he phoned her and she informed him he was a bit late.

[Fencergrl]

Or it may have nothing to do with inappropriate behaviour of males coaches (as this could happen in any sport).

Perhaps it is because part of the judging in gymnasts is on appearance. I would think that women coaches may have a slight advantage over the male coaches.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

By your calculations, Women's sabre is more competitive than men's sabre, and therefore more interesting.

You're misunderstanding his calculations. He's saying the opposite.

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Perhaps it is because part of the judging in gymnasts is on appearance. I would think that women coaches may have a slight advantage over the male coaches.

One would not expect this to result in a requirement that a female coach be on the floor. Even if your hypothesis were true, it might result in greater prevalence of female coaches on the floor, but it wouldn't result in a requirement by anyone.

Who, exactly, is establishing this requirement?

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Last weekend, I was enjoying the US Women's Gymnastics Olympic Qualification programme on NBC. (I enjoyed it. I'm also not sorry, nor embarrassed.)

One of the recurring sub-plots, according to the announcing team, was a requirement for the Olympic Games that at least one coach "on the floor" be a woman.

I don't know exactly where this requirement originated. IOC? USOC? US Gymnastics?

I reposted Mr. E's original comment. He doesn't know why the requirement exists (and I'm too lazy to go looking). However, when I first read this, I assumed that the American gymnasts had decided to do this. It is also not uncommon to see women figure skating coaches as well... as their judging also has points for appearance.

From your response you assumed it was IOC? I guess finding out who has made this a requirement would likely tell us why it exists or at least give us some clues.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

I guess finding out who has made this a requirement would likely tell us why it exists or at least give us some clues.

I agree.

I wasn't assuming anyone in particular made the requirement. However, regardless of who made it, the rationale you suggested seems extremely unlikely, even if your idea about feminine advantages is correct.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Jason

the rationale you suggested seems extremely unlikely, even if your idea about feminine advantages is correct.

Yeah I would on the same page as you if for one experience I had.... where the fencers weren't put on the same floor as the gymnasts in a multi-sport event I attended.... a very weird experience to say the least.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


In my other sport, floorball, there is a (at least one) top-level female coach. She is coach of the Swedish National men´s senior team. That team has so far won all 5 World Championship Gold medals that the young sport has so far handed out, and in those championships not lost, or even got tied to, any single championship game. In an interview, she said that she of course stays in the locker room before and after the games when the players are changing and showering.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

she of course stays in the locker room before and after the games when the players are changing and showering.

Some people get all the good jobs...

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

If a similar requirement was made for US Fencing who could we send, and would they be able to justify their selection over their male peers?

Thoughts?

Women's gymnastics teams -- which do have deal with the rule -- aren't even sure who they could justify selecting over their male peers.

Supposedly in the olden days of women's gymnastics male coaches weren't even allowed on the competition floor. Nowadays the majority of the top women gymnasts' coaches are male.

http://www.intlgymnast.com/forum/showthread.php?t=470