USOC and USFencing - Discussion

[Eppie]

Originally Posted by heretic

I have known Andrea since she first came to the US ...At some point, her ego exploded. Maybe she began living vicariously through her successful students, but whatever the reason, she would no longer be willing to listen to other points of view or tolerate dissenting opinions....if she disagreed. Her attitude toward the FC National coaches in foil and saber was very different; often hostile and confrontational, but rarely conciliatory or consultative.

I just encountered this thread today and have something to add about Andrea's character. My intention is to provide a balanced view (including the good and the bad) from someone who knew her well in the past. I think that it is important to emphasize that she has the capacity to be a valuable ally to her friends and will stand up for those she is fond of, often going out of her way to help out. I respect her for this. But she can also be capricious at times. In her early days at NCF in Colorado, before she was established as a top US coach, many people—including longstanding members of the club—were surprised when they managed to get on her "bad side" and suffered for doing so. Several quit fencing altogether. She does not take criticism well, and once her temper is triggered (even for seemingly small things), she can be cold, sharp, and/or confrontational, and is known to hold grudges for a very long time.

That being said, I know very little about her handling of the USFA. From my experience, she displayed commendable administrative qualities in the past, can be a great asset in this regard, and might shine in such a position. Again, she can be an outspoken ally, and often displays good sense when it comes to organizing, so she definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt and a fair hearing in administrative matters. But Eric is correct to point out that, like most folks involved in high level US fencing, she does NOT have a totally unblemished character.

[Inquartata]

Aside from me, who does?

[KD5MDK]

Mr Epee.

[JEC]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Aside from me, who does?

He said "folks involved in high level US fencing"

[Eppie]

Originally Posted by JEC

He said "folks involved in high level US fencing"

I’m a she

[Eppie]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Aside from me, who does?

My point was not to say that I have a pristine character, but I was surprised to read so many dichotomous posts about Andrea’s character. The debate appeared to be an argument between those who think she’s simply wonderful and those who strongly dislike her. Even though I will admit that I’m not her biggest fan, I wanted to give more realistic and complex perspective. That’s all.

I personally experienced both her good side and her bad side. Years ago, I viewed her as a wonderful person, a good friend, and a valuable fencing ally, then she turned on me rather suddenly and I experienced another side of her, which I found to be both shocking and devastating. To reiterate: “She does not take criticism well, and once her temper is triggered (even for seemingly small things), she can be cold, sharp, and/or confrontational, and is known to hold grudges for a very long time.” Many of us at NCF left the club during the same period of time and for similar reasons.

However, this does not mean she isn’t an asset to the USFA, and it does not mean that she doesn’t do a lot for US fencing. I simply can’t answer this because I haven’t been keeping up with fencing “politics” in recent years, and she has the potential to be a good administrator and organizer and would certainly gain people’s respect for her dedication to the sport and willingness to go out on a limb for those she cares about. In spite of her flaws, she is a perfectionist and a hard worker…but back in the day, she had a reputation for being good to her friends while at the same time alienating people that criticized or disagreed with her.

[heretic]

Originally Posted by Eppie

My point was not to say that I have a pristine character, but I was surprised to read so many dichotomous posts about Andrea’s character. The debate appeared to be an argument between those who think she’s simply wonderful and those who strongly dislike her. Even though I will admit that I’m not her biggest fan, I wanted to give more realistic and complex perspective. That’s all.

I personally experienced both her good side and her bad side. Years ago, I viewed her as a wonderful person, a good friend, and a valuable fencing ally, then she turned on me rather suddenly and I experienced another side of her, which I found to be both shocking and devastating. To reiterate: “She does not take criticism well, and once her temper is triggered (even for seemingly small things), she can be cold, sharp, and/or confrontational, and is known to hold grudges for a very long time.” Many of us at NCF left the club during the same period of time and for similar reasons.

However, this does not mean she isn’t an asset to the USFA, and it does not mean that she doesn’t do a lot for US fencing. I simply can’t answer this because I haven’t been keeping up with fencing “politics” in recent years, and she has the potential to be a good administrator and organizer and would certainly gain people’s respect for her dedication to the sport and willingness to go out on a limb for those she cares about. In spite of her flaws, she is a perfectionist and a hard worker…but back in the day, she had a reputation for being good to her friends while at the same time alienating people that criticized or disagreed with her.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. IMO, that's what turned Andrea. Thanks mystery woman, for your personal insight. You will find that here in the land of entrenched belief and strange bedfellows, it won't register all that much. On the other hand, lots of folks just drop by and read, so they will take notice.

Good night, Andrea.....where ever you are

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by heretic

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I'm shocked...shocked I say!...that there would be strong personalities and large egos crossed with petty politics and grudges in national organization with ties to the Olympics.

Or any organization with more than...oh, say 10 people in it, for that matter.

[JEC]

Originally Posted by Eppie

... In her early days at NCF in Colorado, before she was established as a top US coach, many people—including longstanding members of the club—were surprised when they managed to get on her "bad side" and suffered for doing so. Several quit fencing altogether. She does not take criticism well, and once her temper is triggered (even for seemingly small things), she can be cold, sharp, and/or confrontational, and is known to hold grudges for a very long time...

There are several old FNet members who were also NCF members from the 90's and might also want to respond. I do not know what you are talking about, Ms. Eppie (I apologize for the "he"; I had not seen this prior post of yours). I never saw the "dark side" that you are describing. I also never saw people dropping out of the NCF because of her.

The other side (the good/loyal coach) that you described is what I saw when she was coaching my daughter and my son. We kept in contact when we came to Texas in 2000. Once again, never saw, witnessed or heard about the "dark side." Like any human being, she is not perfect, but I can not think of any other coach who I was able to trust my young children than Andrea Lagan.

[Eppie]

Originally Posted by JEC

There are several old FNet members who were also NCF members from the 90's and might also want to respond...I never saw the "dark side" that you are describing...The other side (the good/loyal coach) that you described is what I saw when she was coaching my daughter and my son.

Fair enough, JEC. I was just sharing some of what I witnessed and experienced on a first-hand basis, and I agree with you that other NCF fencers should contribute to this discussion as well. Have I not been clear all along that Andrea has a “good” side as well as a “bad” one? This is my point. I’m not disputing the positive experience your children had with her as their initial coach before they moved from Colorado to Texas, and I’m delighted that she got them hooked on the sport of fencing. But the fact remains that she gained an early reputation in the club for being Janis faced, both an asset for youth fencing and potentially abrasive to the teenagers and adults who were involved in NCF before she arrived at the club.

She began coaching at NCF in the early nineties (around 92 or 93) by taking charge of the beginning kids classes. She obviously did a great job training new young fencers, and I was one of her most ardent supporters in the earliest days. (My opinion was that, and still is, that we need more tough and talented female coaches in the world of American fencing.) But during this period of time, there was a marked change and turnover in the club—among already established NCF junior and senior fencers, who were all students of Gary—and many of the “issues” that sparked her temper (and was the impetus behind this) struck me as silly and petty at the time. At first I was in denial about what was happening, but when it finally impacted me personally, I was... stunned, hurt, and depressed. Both elite and recreational fencers witnessed or experienced “issues” with Andrea over the years, and I highly encourage them to respond.

[heretic]

Given Andrea's potential roll as the USOC liaison and $$$$ gate keeper to the USFA, these issues are germane. I have experienced the ying/yang of Andrea, and her inability to maintain objectivity with individuals who cross her is a huge liability if she is given that much power. Several current national coaches have serious issues with her, and would have real difficulty working through their adversarial relationship over the next quad.

My fear is that the USOC will not get sufficient input to make a balanced decision. That would be unfortunate.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally Posted by heretic

Given Andrea's potential roll as the USOC liaison...

If she's that autocratic, would it be a Kaiser roll?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by JEC

He said "folks involved in high level US fencing"

This jest threatens to get out of hand...but what the hell?

"Folks involved in high level US fencing" is a subset of human beings. Inasmuch as no human being does or can ever have a "totally unblemished character", everyone in the subset is automatically included. But so too are those in the set of all human beings...

Except for me.

( Mr. Epee suffers from being an epeeist, which, being itself a character flaw of the first water, disqualifies him from perfection. )

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

If she's that autocratic, would it be a Kaiser roll?

Or maybe a Napoleon.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Eppie

(and was the impetus behind this) struck me as silly and petty at the time. At first I was in denial about what was happening, but when it finally impacted me personally, I was... stunned, hurt, and depressed. Both elite and recreational fencers witnessed or experienced “issues” with Andrea over the years, and I highly encourage them to respond.

Eppie,
I would never deny your experience or suggest that you are wrong. There are a lot of people who attack me for not thinking my daughter's coach is the end all of coaches too.
People change and grow up. They mature and have a different perspective of life especially after their 20's. I know I sure as heck did. Having a child even adds to the maturity level and is probably one of the most enlightening experiences a person can have.
The Andrea you knew then is most likely not the Andrea of the present.
I do think that Andrea deserves a lot of credit for what she has been able to do for fencing since beginning to work for the USFA.
We have been around for a while. There was an instilled "get the parents out and take their money" mentality in the USFA for years and years before Andrea started working as the team manager. Coaches support this fully because then they don't have to answer for their actions. There are many coaches who have nothing to hide but the ones that do are the same coaches who insist the loudest they are to be blindly obeyed.
There are a lot of fencers who are successful now due to her assistance. A lot of her "not getting along with coaches" is not so much not getting along, but not letting the status quo go unquestioned. It takes someone with guts to stand up to a coach and say "no."
People don't do adminstrative jobs to be popular. They do them because they need to be done.

[Eppie]

Originally Posted by Mo

Eppie,
I would never deny your experience or suggest that you are wrong...People change and grow up. They mature...The Andrea you knew then is most likely not the Andrea of the present... I do think that Andrea deserves a lot of credit for what she has been able to do for fencing since beginning to work for the USFA.

I sincerely hope that you are correct, because the Andrea I knew then had a very mean and vindictive streak. Then again, I have tried to be as fair minded as possible in this forum, and part of what you said about her administrative skills is consistent with my earlier postings. As I mentioned earlier, she has the potential to be a talented administrator: “From my experience, she displayed commendable administrative qualities in the past, can be a great asset in this regard, and might shine in such a position. Again, she can be an outspoken ally, and often displays good sense when it comes to organizing…”

In spite of her flaws, the Andrea Lagan I once knew was tough, outspoken, and apt to try to take control of everything around her, for better or for worse. But whether or not she is an asset to the USFA--which she might very well be (?)--she certainly did not do right by me (or several other former NCF fencers that I knew), and I still believe that she is not a person to be trusted. However, if she really has matured, then I would be delighted to receive a general apology from her for her behavior during those days. Apologies go a long way, and my opinion remains open to revision.

[ysbadadden]

Why was the effort to recall the president abandoned? Were those behind it persuaded that it wasn't a good idea in the first place, or was there some kind of quid pro quo? There is no guarantee that we'd be in better shape if they had succeeded, but I still would like to know why they backed off.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Perhaps the rabid anti-Nancyites will be kind enough to explain the Faustian story of Jeff Bukantz and the Deal With the Devil for you.

[peet]

Originally Posted by ysbadadden

Why was the effort to recall the president abandoned? Were those behind it persuaded that it wasn't a good idea in the first place, or was there some kind of quid pro quo? There is no guarantee that we'd be in better shape if they had succeeded, but I still would like to know why they backed off.

As I recall*, the effort was not abandoned. It failed. Votes were cast and counted, and the recall was not successful.

-P


* I swear, as God is my witness, I typed that word before I realized I was making a pun.

[heretic]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

If she's that autocratic, would it be a Kaiser roll?

I would defer to your wife in such matters. My understanding is she has more than a passing familiarity with quite a variety of rolls, in addition to the full spectrum of baked goods.