I have been around fencing for 30 years now and ever thing is the same all the money go to the elite fencers and none to the base line support of the USFA the unrated the d and c rank fencer. The elite fencer or the parents just what for themseleves. Nothing change.
Tim Loomis
Ye Olde Armourer MASTER ARMOURER
DO YOU TRUST YOUR ARMOURER
GOD Loves His Warriors www.yeoldearmourer.com
I have been around fencing for 30 years now and ever thing is the same all the money go to the elite fencers and none to the base line support of the USFA the unrated the d and c rank fencer. The elite fencer or the parents just what for themseleves. Nothing change.
I really don't understand how people can keep saying this when one of the noted problems is that elite fencers and coaches aren't getting paid.
Last edited by TooLoftheDeviL; 06-27-2008 at 08:50 PM.
Thru the darkness of Future Past
the magician longs to see
one chants out between two worlds
Fire walk with me.
"mauled for daring to post half-baked and ill-thought-out ideas in a forum of vaguely intelligent people and then reacting in an extreme defensive manner when flaws in those ideas were pointed out"
The only way to atone for being occasionally a little over-dressed is by being always absolutely over-educated. -Oscar Wilde
Maybe we should ask Jed Dupree, whose entry to a critical Pan Am foil qualification event was not sent in by Andrea; is there a correlation between the fact that one of his rival contenders for the foil team was a member of her club? She sure didn't forget to send in that fencers entry.
Originally Posted by epeemike81
I'd appreciate a citation for this one (should be easy, since you say it's "Well documented in public sources.") Given your implication of sinister motives, I'd also appreciate any evidence you have that this was a sinister act, since that accusation runs so contrary to all other knowledge I have of Andrea.
Lest this get buried as we move on...note the total lack of follow up with citations from heretic after his drive-by character assassination of Andrea. Heretic clearly insinuates collusion by Andrea to the advantage of "her fencer" and against Jed. Those of us who were at Valencia remember it somewhat differently.
Jed Dupree had been duly entered by the National Office. There was a last minute substitution of Kurt Getz with Gerek Meinhardt. In the rush getting USFA staffers to the airport, Jed Dupree was inadvertently removed for the Zonal Qualifiers--but not the Zonal Champs--by the National Office, instead of Getz. The mistake was caught by Andrea and George and the competitor list was updated in Venezuela before the event began. Jed was still in the pool lists the day before, if memory serves. The problem became that the FIE overseer was not at all happy when she discovered the paperwork discrepancy, re-removed Jed (even though he was present and accounted for) and refused to let him fence.
No collusion, no shadowy fencer on the grassy knoll. So why is heretic making these kinds of slimy claims?
Originally Posted by Peach
To someone on the outside, it looks like insider squabbling, like someone taking advantage of disorder to settle some old scores.
Connect the dots between heretic and his old buddy Bukantz and the internecine disputes that have flared between Jeff and Andrea, and maybe you'll begin to see the outline of the potshot cannon heretic has been firing so indiscriminately.
In my view, Andrea is one of the main axles that's kept the USFA wagon rolling at all during the past few years. To malign her with such a spurious insinuation borders on libel, and should be followed with a heartfelt apology.
If, of course, heretic actually had one...
"Sometimes we, as coaches, get into that dictator mode where you just tell and you don't listen and you don't try to understand them." Tom Izzo, Mich. St.
"Fraud is the creation of trust. And then: its betrayal."
William Black, Ph.D.
Lest this get buried as we move on...note the total lack of follow up with citations from heretic after his drive-by character assassination of Andrea. Heretic clearly insinuates collusion by Andrea to the advantage of "her fencer" and against Jed. Those of us who were at Valencia remember it somewhat differently.
Jed Dupree had been duly entered by the National Office. There was a last minute substitution of Kurt Getz with Gerek Meinhardt. In the rush getting USFA staffers to the airport, Jed Dupree was inadvertently removed for the Zonal Qualifiers--but not the Zonal Champs--by the National Office, instead of Getz. The mistake was caught by Andrea and George and the competitor list was updated in Venezuela before the event began. Jed was still in the pool lists the day before, if memory serves. The problem became that the FIE overseer was not at all happy when she discovered the paperwork discrepancy, re-removed Jed (even though he was present and accounted for) and refused to let him fence.
No collusion, no shadowy fencer on the grassy knoll. So why is heretic making these kinds of slimy claims?
Connect the dots between heretic and his old buddy Bukantz and the internecine disputes that have flared between Jeff and Andrea, and maybe you'll begin to see the outline of the potshot cannon heretic has been firing so indiscriminately.
In my view, Andrea is one of the main axles that's kept the USFA wagon rolling at all during the past few years. To malign her with such a spurious insinuation borders on libel, and should be followed with a heartfelt apology.
If, of course, heretic actually had one...
Nice try, Mr. Ward. The Zonal Championships were irrelevant (Jed won them, but you know that, because you were there) The zonal qualifiers, which were critical point events and the ones that really mattered, followed. Jed was entered in the meaningless event but not the point event. Jed was effectively prevented from getting any points because he was not entered.
Andrea and Andrea alone was responsible for submitting the entries. All the entries. All except Jed's.
Those are the facts. No spin. Can you or anyone refute them?
Now it's time for you to start bashing Ed again, it's been at least 5 minutes.
Eric,
Mistakes happen, but you are implying that it was done as a conspiracy to help another fencer make the team. I am a rank and file Epee fencer. I have known Andrea since '99. She was the first coach of my son back then but unfortunatel only for one year as we moved to Texas. I do not believe your characterization of her. She is a very kind person. I know that you will continue to hold a grudge because of this incident. You have made your point as you informed the FNet community about this issue. However, as a long time member of this board, please desist from further personal attacks.
Thanks,
Jose E. Cavazos
Eric,
Mistakes happen, but you are implying that it was done as a conspiracy to help another fencer make the team. I am a rank and file Epee fencer. I have known Andrea since '99. She was the first coach of my son back then but unfortunatel only for one year as we moved to Texas. I do not believe your characterization of her. She is a very kind person. I know that you will continue to hold a grudge because of this incident. You have made your point as you informed the FNet community about this issue. However, as a long time member of this board, please desist from further personal attacks.
Thanks,
Jose E. Cavazos
Or, to rephrase in a less polite manner:
"You are coming off as a creepy ****. You have said a great deal-- and while some facts may be correct, much of the INTENT you are claiming is unsubstantiated. Either give us some evidence, or shut the **** up and sit down."
Personally, I don't know nearly enough to judge any of your claims. But the fact that you're sketching me out over an internet forum doesn't do very much credit for your claims.........
Eric,
Mistakes happen, but you are implying that it was done as a conspiracy to help another fencer make the team. I am a rank and file Epee fencer. I have known Andrea since '99. She was the first coach of my son back then but unfortunatel only for one year as we moved to Texas. I do not believe your characterization of her. She is a very kind person. I know that you will continue to hold a grudge because of this incident. You have made your point as you informed the FNet community about this issue. However, as a long time member of this board, please desist from further personal attacks.
Thanks,
Jose E. Cavazos
I have known Andrea since she first came to the US and stayed with the Kellners in NJ. She was always welcomed at the FC. When she moved to CO and started working with Gary, I appreciated her passion, commitment and dedication. In the past, we worked together on certain issues, and faced each other across the strip when our fencers competed. No matter what, back then we always respected each other. When she had her medical problems, I reached out and marshaled resources within my fencing community and tried to get her help.
At some point, her ego exploded. Maybe she began living vicariously through her successful students, but whatever the reason, she would no longer be willing to listen to other points of view or tolerate dissenting opinions. Once Massik hired her, she became unapproachable to many in the fencing community. When I had an issue or problem, she would simply refuse to engage in a dialogue. No matter what, she knew best. She was very solicitous to the athletes, but would frequently drag her feet when it came to actually following through on what they wanted - if she disagreed.
Her attitude toward the FC National coaches in foil and saber was very different; often hostile and confrontational, but rarely conciliatory or consultative.
Was the Jed entry issue an honest mistake? I would certainly stipulate to that possibility. Did she ever own up to her actions? Absolutely not. Did she ever even condescend to offer an apology to Jed? Never.
USFA employees work for the membership, and in her specific case, the athletes and coaches. The Andrea I see is in business for herself.
Perception is reality, and you know a different person than I do. Never the less, facts are facts.
You know, I bow to no one in my suspicions of the USFA bureaucracy or in criticism of some of its behaviors. But really, this is too much.
Bureaucratic dysfunctions can exist without malicious intent on the part of individual bureaucrats. I think this is what has always been going on.
But hey, for the self-admitted "conspiracy theorists", here's another for you:
It's all the FFC's fault.
Manifestly, Tracy saw that she wasn't going to win the election, so she went to her contacts in the USOC to get them to intervene. I mean, she threatened as much in her letter to the USFA after it tried to invalidate her candidacy on a technicality, didn't she?
Or maybe not. Maybe we could just argue on the facts in evidence, rather than on assumptions springing from personal animosities?
Originally Posted by TooLoftheDeviL
I really don't understand how people can keep saying this when one of the noted problems is that elite fencers and coaches aren't getting paid.
Well...they aren't getting paid completely. Not necessarily the same thing as not getting paid.
If some CEO doesn't get his promised $25 million bonus, does that mean his $200 million a year salary doesn't count and we must say that "he hasn't been paid"?
Is anyone denying that a lot of money has gone into the weapon programs?
Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!
Honestly.
...
Is anyone denying that a lot of money has gone into the weapon programs?
In my house, we have a budget. It determines as to whether I get to go to NACs or not this year, and how many I can go. IMHO, the problem was that high performance weapon teams were going to more World Cups than anticipated, and were also doing better than anticipated. USFA had to pay and send referees because of the size of the group, and had promised performance bonuses that couldn't be paid. On top, the dollar has been tanking 30% (a hidden tax), the travel costs for athletes, coaches, and referees skyrocketed beyond the primitive budgeting. That is why we needed professionals running budgets. No accountability as to how many competitions USFA was paying for, etc. There are many other issues brought up in the election threads. Clearly, the problems begin with a lack of budgeting and a desire to stick to the budget. If people have grand plans, better have grand fundraising plans too.
At some point, her ego exploded. Maybe she began living vicariously through her successful students, but whatever the reason, she would no longer be willing to listen to other points of view or tolerate dissenting opinions. Once Massik hired her, she became unapproachable to many in the fencing community. When I had an issue or problem, she would simply refuse to engage in a dialogue. No matter what, she knew best. She was very solicitous to the athletes, but would frequently drag her feet when it came to actually following through on what they wanted - if she disagreed.
Her attitude toward the FC National coaches in foil and saber was very different; often hostile and confrontational, but rarely conciliatory or consultative.
This characterization rings hollow and is ENTIRELY inconsistent with every experience I have ever had with Andrea. She is EXTREMELY approachable and helpful.
Your statements are quite simply entirely unbelievable.
"You are coming off as a creepy ****. You have said a great deal-- and while some facts may be correct, much of the INTENT you are claiming is unsubstantiated. Either give us some evidence, or shut the **** up and sit down."
Personally, I don't know nearly enough to judge any of your claims. But the fact that you're sketching me out over an internet forum doesn't do very much credit for your claims.........
I don't know if "creepy" is quite the right word, but yeah, not at all credible. I'd definitely second the statement "Either give us some evidence, or shut the **** up."
Once Massik hired her, she became unapproachable to many in the fencing community. When I had an issue or problem, she would simply refuse to engage in a dialogue.
Hopefully, you save your emails, which would allow you to substantiate this stuff.
She was very solicitous to the athletes, but would frequently drag her feet when it came to actually following through on what they wanted - if she disagreed. Her attitude toward the FC National coaches in foil and saber was very different; often hostile and confrontational, but rarely conciliatory or consultative.
I've seen national coaches be hostile and confrontational more than conciliatory and consultative too. Wherever the truth of these matters lie, I suspect it's somewhere in between each party's characterizations. It's a shame that you came out firing with both barrels, because that impugns your credibility in a small community where there are few secrets and everybody's done a thing or two they're not proud of...the really interesting things you had to say got lost in the name-calling and the subsequent defense.
Airing dirty laundry is fine - if it sits, it just molds. But really, Eric, can there ever be proof on f.net, or is it always just innuendo and casting suspicion? If affecting positive change was your goal, wouldn't you want to get all the information out there for people to see and decide for themselves? Otherwise it's just hearsay and popularity contests, and you've probably done an unpleasant thing or two, or associate with people who have.
Was the Jed entry issue an honest mistake? I would certainly stipulate to that possibility. Did she ever own up to her actions? Absolutely not.
The USFA clearly has some massive organizational dysfunction going on, but Andrea hardly seems like the largest part of the problem. It may be more likely that she's one person, trying to pull more than her weight in a world where we can't make Christine Simmons clones.
"You are coming off as a creepy ****. You have said a great deal-- and while some facts may be correct, much of the INTENT you are claiming is unsubstantiated. Either give us some evidence, or shut the **** up and sit down."
Personally, I don't know nearly enough to judge any of your claims. But the fact that you're sketching me out over an internet forum doesn't do very much credit for your claims.........
Like many forum veterens you are someone who has done nothing but spend your time posting on this site in addition to scribing a very boring blog.
While you and your cohorts were and continue to engage in this meaningless activity Eric has used his personal time and resources to advance American fencing. Of the current 15 members of the Olympic Team 6 were training at the FC when he was in charge. In addition to nurturing his elite corps Eric invested countless hours looking after those members who were college bound regardless of their level of fencing. A disproportionate number of young fencers from the FC have landed in many of the top universities in the country, due in large part to his personal advocay in their behalf. There are many other examples of his contributions which are on record for anyone to see.
Eric has earned the right to be blunt and, yes angry about the current situation. This is tough stuff and requires that you do your homework. The only mistake Eric is making is bringing these issues to this forum. It is naturally threatening especially to the senior members (3k-23k posts) who use this as their sole social outlet.
BTW as far as bashing is concerned those of Coach Korfanty and Mr. Bukantz
appear at a very high frequency with little or no challenge by the members of this forum.
Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer 
