2008-2009 Bay Cup schedule (preliminary)

[edew]

Someone suggested I post the preliminary Bay Cup schedule to give others a hint of what's to come. So here it is. It's a plain text file (so that I can use RCS for version control).

Oh, there's still work to do in enumerating the counts and possibly removing or adding other events (as well as non Bay Cup events).

[jjefferies]

Ok, I want to begin to agitate for Team Events. At least Team Epee. I think we could work up a pretty good rivalry between EBFG, GGFC, and Cardinal. All that's needed is for me to dis' GGFC for their losses to EBFG at the PCC's and maybe slander Cardinal just a tad. Hey we could do teams in the Seniors and Veterans. In EPEE that is. Them flouncing foofy foilists will never be able to get it up for a team event.

[wwalkerjr]

Jonathan the Provocateur.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by wwalkerjr

Jonathan the Provocateur.

Surely you mean "Agent provocateur". Ah yes! that has a much better ring to it.
Johnny Espada, Agent provocateur!
Now where to best put the burr under the burro's hide?
Do either Phil Hedges or Dylan Bethel frequent these parts?
They're both standup fellows willing to engage in a little mayhem.
A needle here a jab there and the old BayCup could lose it's staid existence for something more interesting.

I seriously see a good case for a seniors event with EBFG and GGFC as nuclei fielding strong epee teams as well as several others. I would say Cardinal but most of their seniors are also Vets. Then we could have a Vets event or two with EBFG and Cardinal, TFC, and Marin?

[wahrman]

To which I respond, you sir suck.

Originally Posted by jjefferies

All that's needed is for me to dis' GGFC for their losses to EBFG at the PCC's

[wahrman]

but seriously, team events would be fun but I wonder about the feasibility of herding all of the cats to the same place at the same time.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Ok, I want to begin to agitate for Team Events. At least Team Epee. I think we could work up a pretty good rivalry between EBFG, GGFC, and Cardinal.

Why limit teams to clubs?

Originally Posted by USFA Ops Manual

D. Composite teams

1) A composite team is one whose members do not represent the same club (they may all be unattached). Such teams are permitted in Divisional or Sectional team competitions unless notice to the contrary is included in the schedule of competitions. Further, a fencer may be part of a composite team in a competition in which his or her club is formally represented with the approval of the appropriate division or Bout Committee Chair.

[...]

5) A fencer who is a member of a club may fence on a composite team without prejudice to his right to represent his club during the same season

[edew]

The problem with teams is that we don't have a clear idea on the following:

1. competition format: DEs from the beginning, or maybe pools
2. Payment for referees...team pools could be quite a long day
3. Fee for team event. $60? $72? $48?
4. Teams composed of clubmates or composites?
5. Do we keep track of wins/losses over the course of a season, like MLB or NBA? Or is it just who won that day?
6. Can fencers M23J fence for composite team Xm67B on one day and for composite team ju*kd^76 the next day (or even later on that day)?

These issues were raised last year and were not resolved, hence we didn't have team events last year. So, until these issues are resolved, I don't expect the Bay Cup to willingly jump into team events.

As mentioned in private email, I'm more than happy and supportive of having team events. Just let the clubs do them and have them flesh out any problems. Once it becomes workable, the Bay Cup will "embrace and extend".

[wahrman]

haaa!!!

Originally Posted by edew

1. Fee for team event. $60? $72? $48?

[Meteoric Iron]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Surely you mean "Agent provocateur". Ah yes! that has a much better ring to it.

jjefferies is into women's lingerie again--(london's best)

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by Meteoric Iron

jjefferies is into women's lingerie again--(london's best)

Ah, Yes! As long as there is a lovely woman in them. Or out. Who am I to dictate?

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by edew

The problem with teams is that we don't have a clear idea on the following:

1. competition format: DEs from the beginning, or maybe pools
2. Payment for referees...team pools could be quite a long day
3. Fee for team event. $60? $72? $48?
4. Teams composed of clubmates or composites?
5. Do we keep track of wins/losses over the course of a season, like MLB or NBA? Or is it just who won that day?
6. Can fencers M23J fence for composite team Xm67B on one day and for composite team ju*kd^76 the next day (or even later on that day)?

These issues were raised last year and were not resolved, hence we didn't have team events last year. So, until these issues are resolved, I don't expect the Bay Cup to willingly jump into team events.

Originally Posted by mfp

Why limit teams to clubs?

Totally agreed. Teams should represent clubs or themselves.
I would propose that
1. teams select a name and state their membership - maybe with a 4th
person as a fill-in as necessary. Club ties defined by the team.
2. Teams to keep names for the season and decide how much to compete.
Not that would matter until we get a series going.
3. fees be the same as for all other events, $20./fencer.
4. That events be the same format as NAC's i.e. no pools, seeding based
on team members classifications, directly into DE's.

As soon as the BayCup schedule is defined we'll look for a date. I'm sure we can host a couple. Any suggestions? Would it make sense to run a Senior series and a Vets series?

[wahrman]

Sorry but you guys are nuts if you think anyone is going to drop $30 on a C+ epee
event and then another $20 on a team event will be lucky to draw 3 teams.

If you want team events, fudge the Bay Cup and just have one right after your
scheduled bay cup event. Charge $5 a person, form teams on the spot.

Announce it ahead of time so people can stick around. Hell, have a 1 touch event
as well. They're fun and quick.

There is no way I'm giving the bay cup $50 a day and I know I'm not the only one
who feels that way.

[edew]

Bay Cup itself may take $0 from the fencer if (s)he paid the season pass. I paid a season pass for both vet and senior. That cost me $80 to the Bay Cup. I fenced in 9 senior events and 11 vet events (despite a very hectic schedule that would not allow me time to compete as much as I would like). My "Bay Cup" cost comes out to $4/event, which is exactly what is paid to referees by the Bay Cup for referee reimbursement. At least I wasn't a burden by over fencing (which many fencers do do).

[wahrman]

I didn't mean to imply that all of that money went to the bay cup. I know it does
not. But I don't care. I'm not paying $45 at the beginning of the season to "join"
so that I can save $10/event for the 6 epee events I can fence per season.

Besides the fact that I only made it to two bay cup events this season.

And my real point is, a mixed epee plus a team event just isn't worth $50-$60
considering the turn out I expect.

Whether you pay the bay cup up front or at the door, you're still paying that fee.

[Meteoric Iron]

Originally Posted by wahrman

Announce it ahead of time so people can stick around. Hell, have a 1 touch event
as well. They're fun and quick.

That's right--more wag, less bark. What about a mixed doubles epee afterwards, with beer?

[wwalkerjr]

Now a comment germaine to the original thread.
I recommend avoiding Labor Day weekend for the first events. Many people have family/travel commitments and it makes it tough for all the people who want to seriously plan on all of the events of a series.

[wahrman]

Cryptic dog references aside, if you are saying that an informal, 1 touch event is silly, yeah, that's the point. It's fun, just like a team event would be.

I claim now that there will never be a serious, competitive, team epee series in the bay cup. Prove me wrong.

So why not have one just for fun? Or mixed doubles? Well, beer is always fun.

Originally Posted by Meteoric Iron

That's right--more wag, less bark. What about a mixed doubles epee afterwards, with beer?

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by wahrman

I claim now that there will never be a serious, competitive, team epee series in the bay cup. Prove me wrong.

Well, EDEW isn't interested until there's a market. So we'll go it alone. I think that once the BayCup and Divisions schedules are finalized we'll look for a date and ask for sanctioning. The Divisions aren't limited to just the BayCup. Any club can sponsor a sanctioned tournament as long as it doesn't collide in dates with a previously scheduled (i.e. BayCup event). Of course classifications can't be awarded. But lets see if we can get some interest. Probably start with the VETS on a Sunday afternoon? Old guys are more open to innovation than the pups.
Make it open to any group of three or more epeeists? Club affiliations not an issue. What about mixed? Costs I'd put it up as the same as any tournament per fencer and no Bay Cup charges. If there are more than three teams direct DE's with reprecharge? If three or less then a grand pool. How does that sound?

[mfp]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

I think that once the BayCup and Divisions schedules are finalized we'll look for a date and ask for sanctioning. The Divisions aren't limited to just the BayCup. Any club can sponsor a sanctioned tournament as long as it doesn't collide in dates with a previously scheduled (i.e. BayCup event).

That may be a rule for event sanctioning in your division, but it ain't one in CenCal. There are no "protected" events or dates on the CenCal calendar.

But then what really is the point of a getting a team event sanctioned by a division in the first place?

What does it add, if anything?