Fencing Proposal - shorter strips - 10 m

[MdA]

I recently received the following question in an email from a reputable source...what do you think?

We are asking your professional opinion based on your observations of the following proposal. Please respond to this email with either "agree" or "disagree." Any additional comments or observations are welcome.

Proposal:
Shorten the length of the fencing strip in each weapon to 10 meters. (Adjusting the warning and on-guard lines appropriately)

Reasoning:
• Shortening the fencing strip would create a more spectacular and visually appealing fencing bout. The shorter strip would force the fencers to execute more actions and more blade activity while simultaneously reducing or eliminating "running" on the strip. Fencers would be forced to make their actions sooner and not after many (excessive) retreats.
• Dueling, from which fencing originates, did not have "running" which is so prevalent in modern bouts. Additionally, the length of the current strip has no relation to traditional dueling practices.
• Strategy and tactics would be unaffected by a shortening of the strip. Fencers will still be able to execute all actions and utilize the various areas of the strip (i.e. fencing on the last meter). The frequency of such actions will increase because of the tighter space.
• Clubs would be able to fit more strips in limited space, allowing more fencers to practice at once thereby increasing their earning and training potential.
• Costs to shorten the strip would be minimal to nonexistant.

In order to more adequately judge the validity of the above proposal we are asking for your assistance. During practice, please ask your fencers to bout on a 10 meter strip. Observe the bouts and form your own opinion. This can be treated as a training exercise similar to the short strip drills many of us participated in during our competitive careers. Thank you very much for your assistance.

And please pass this on to other coaches!

[telkanuru]

Just no.

[bigdawg2121]

By this logic can we just have fencing occur from the en guarde lines.

[HDG]

Disagree

Reasoning:
• Shortening the fencing strip would create a more spectacular and visually appealing fencing bout.

I don't care if observers find my bouts spectacular or visually appealing. This is a sport; it's not Cirque du Soleil.

The shorter strip would force the fencers to execute more actions and more blade activity while simultaneously reducing or eliminating "running" on the strip. Fencers would be forced to make their actions sooner and not after many (excessive) retreats.

Who cares? And "excessive" according to whom?

• Dueling, from which fencing originates, did not have "running" which is so prevalent in modern bouts. Additionally, the length of the current strip has no relation to traditional dueling practices.

Who cares?

• Strategy and tactics would be unaffected by a shortening of the strip. Fencers will still be able to execute all actions and utilize the various areas of the strip (i.e. fencing on the last meter). The frequency of such actions will increase because of the tighter space.

Factually dubious, and not a benefit, merely the absence of harm.

• Clubs would be able to fit more strips in limited space, allowing more fencers to practice at once thereby increasing their earning and training potential.

We (i.e. my club) are only able to practice on short strips already.

• Costs to shorten the strip would be minimal to nonexistant.

As are the gains…

[noodle]

i disagree with most of those premises, except the cost and space ones.

i mean, i don't necessarily dislike the idea, might be neat to try fencing on it. but reasoning on #1-3 are flimsy at best.

[noodle]

By this logic can we just have fencing occur from the en guarde lines.

you mean wheelchair

[catwood1]

It would actually likely decrease the visual appeal of the sport. Actions that occur in the 2 meter warning, are often the ugliest, messiest fencing in the bout. There is no space to retreat, so lots of infighting, and messiness.

I don't want to increase the amount of ugly fencing. Theres enough of that as is.

[MdA]

I hate to be negative but I think the effects of this change would be catastrophic for all three weapons but especially for foil.

I coached at a club with short strips (about 10 meters) for about two years. This was a limitation of a new facility our Sports Foundation leased for us. I don’t need to do a special session now. I have seen its effect. Eventually, I had to move my fencers to another club.

The effect is that the fencers stand in the middle of the strip and don’t move. They began to rely more on counterattacks, evasive action, cover with mask and unarmed hand, and in-fighting (remises). The foil fencing degenerates into an ugly stab and jab fest. The most beautiful actions in fencing are almost eliminated. No compound ripostes. No Doubles. No compound attacks…no room to set them up.

Probably, the only good thing is that “Flicks” will make a comeback!!! (ya’ll know I love ‘em)…because the fencers will be standing on top of each other.

The attempts to sell this as a return to original dueling concepts…...or as a cost saver for clubs to save space is ridiculous. Since when have any of the recent FIE rule changes tried to move things back towards the historical roots of fencing?

This will also significantly influence tactics in epee. I won’t get into that here.

This is a very bad idea….to go along with a whole series of recent really bad ideas. Just leave the rules alone for at least four years so we can figure out what to teach our fencers. They might be doing a psychological study on the effects of all these rules changes on coaches….or our resistance to change. He has picked a great topic to send this coach “over the top”.

[Allen Evans]

I think this proposal stems from someone's belief that fencing is about blade manuevering alone, with no component of distance or distance-oriented tactics.

Big mistake to shorten the strips more than they are now.

Allen Evans

[Welted 24/7]

• Strategy and tactics would be unaffected by a shortening of the strip. Fencers will still be able to execute all actions and utilize the various areas of the strip (i.e. fencing on the last meter). The frequency of such actions will increase because of the tighter space.

Um...what? How can the strategy and tactics of a bout be unaffected if you're forcing the timing to change in which the actions take place? That changes the entire dynamic. I have a hard time believing this comes from a reputable source if they have such a fundamental lack of understanding of what "strategy and tactics" constitutes.

• Dueling, from which fencing originates, did not have "running" which is so prevalent in modern bouts. Additionally, the length of the current strip has no relation to traditional dueling practices.

Dueling didn't have a ****ton of things that modern fencing has.

This list kinda blows, a lot.

[KD5MDK]

Dueling didn't have bouts to 15 touches either...


Consider the effect this would have on sabre. Because of the speed of action, much more distance is required in order to to perform the same actions that take place in a much smaller space in other weapons. Or is the plan to now have different length strips for different weapons?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

USACFCs might be run on short strips this upcoming year.

[swordsen]

So why not just tell us who this "reputable source" is? If they want this information they can bloody well use their name.

[oiuyt]

I recently received the following question in an email from a reputable source...what do you think?

<SNIP>

And please pass this on to other coaches!

MdA: Your source asked you to pass the request along. Was there a condition of anonymity attached? I suspect I'm not the only person reading here who's interested in where this is coming from.

edit: and swordsen's post made while I was writing mine confirms that I'm not the only one... :)

-B

[KD5MDK]

USACFCs might be run on short strips this upcoming year.

Right, but I consider Brad's reaction to that to be entirely appropriate and the reaction to his position extremely indicative of how messed up that organization is.

So why not just tell us who this "reputable source" is? If they want this information they can bloody well use their name.

MdA is a very experienced guy. I'll trust him to know the reputation of whoever made this up, and that his reaction* is the right one.


*To this proposal as a terrible idea. I have no particular stance on the anonymity issue.

[MdA]

They did use their name in the email. I am not sure they want it posted on Fencing.net. I am just collecting info...my response to the requester is to go check out this board.

[Mr Epee]

They did use their name in the email. I am not sure they want it posted on Fencing.net. I am just collecting info...my response to the requester is to go check out this board.

Sometimes it is interesting to see reactions to an idea WITHOUT being influenced by the source. Nice to know that the community recognizes the problem with this suggestion regardless of who thunk it up.

I seem to recall something like this popping up a few years ago on the web page of some "classical" minded fencers. I don't remember which one. It's possible that this subject has resurfaced in the mind of a totally different individual.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Right, but I consider Brad's reaction to that to be entirely appropriate and the reaction to his position extremely indicative of how messed up that organization is.

For those of you that don't read the Yahoo Group, Brad's reaction was:

I'm sorry, are we really considering running USACFCs next year on strips that are over a meter shorter than regulation, as well as too thin?

Wow. That's all I can say.

-B

Some of the reaction to this was less-than-nice.

[telkanuru]

Some of the reaction to this was less-than-nice.

And some of the people reacting were less-than-intelligent.

[dekko]

Mr Epee is right, this is not the first time this has been suggested. Seems similiar to the basic ideas for the sabre strips going from 18m to 14m, like foil and epee. Sure there were strong logistical reasons for that change and unfortunately those same points could be used to shorten them another 4m.

This does seem like a tv type request. I used to have a student that was very well versed in sports broadcastding and the production of same and he, at the time, mentioned to me about the possibility of shortening the strips. He was very new to the sport and he even nailed pretty quick the strips were too long compared to the nature of the sport. Most other sports, most of the time will dramatically move action onthe playign field but it will usually stay there for a period of time then move again. Football, for instance, how often does it dramatically move to different areas of the field and back again and back again and back again, you get the idea. Football tends to happen in one area of the field, then move a little, usually, then happen some more, then move again and gradually move down the field. Sure the long pass happens that will dramatically move the action but those are more rare than the teams moving gradually down the field.

I actually like the resuest for many reasons but if it did or didn't change I wouldn't lose sleep either way. It would be short sighted to dismiss this quickly just because it's very different than 'how it's done now'. This may be more of a referendum, IE public opinion, of this potential change not true input. Raise your hand if you like the dramatic foil changes of a few years ago? Last I checked no one asked for a vote there either. Seems as though 'someone' is fishing for potential good and bad points they haven't thougth of yet before making this happen.