Body cord markers?

[happy]

I raised this question in the general forum but wanted to check with the experts here -

I believe that all NACs use tape as the body cord marker. I have seen a few instances of the tape falling off and the fencer receiving a red card because they came to the strip without the required mark. It happened either between pool bouts, or at the beginning of a DE, so we can assume the tape was there and it fell off somehow. The impact of the red card was very costly and demoralizing.

I know it's the fencer's obligation to check and maintain their gear - but for the moment I want to focus on the design of the markers. Looking at it from a design perspective, the marker should be something that can endure a couple days of competition with a negligible failure rate, because the cost of failure is high (a red card for a fencer, in a national tournament).

What is the general experience of armorers with using tape as a body cord marker? Have you had many fencers complain that it falls off? Is the general consensus this system is 'good enough' for national tournaments? The only alternative I've seen is to use zip ties - I've never seen them fall off, but what are the pros/cons of using that system? Even if the failure rate of tape is low, if it goes to almost zero with zip ties, is there a good reason not to use them?

My personal opinion is that the tape, while convenient and fast, is not as secure as it needs to be to meet the design needs, but I'm a small sample...

Thanks!

PS - If this is the best solution, maybe the penalty should be reduced for missing a body cord marker to a yellow card - because this is the only marker that could potentially fall off. It feels to me that it should be in the category of offenses like showing up to the strip with a body cord that doesn't work, since it can't be assumed that the person didn't check the body cord in the first place.

[DHCJr]

First your assumption that the tape falling off is always the reason. I have seen instances where during a break they take of their jacket and cord and throw it in their bag.

They then grab a cord that they never checked or was failed.

In answer I can give you a 4-letter word. COST.

The USFA is not noted for reinbursing Armorers for the cost incurred in working a tournament. The tape is there with the rest of the equipment so is free. The cable ties cost.

That is why some head-armorers use a date stamp.

My personal preference is to use cable ties and make enough custom stamps for every Armorer plus one extra. But for others and this is a very viable reason, money is important.

There are two other reason given for not using zip-ties. One is the time involved and the other is it breaks wires. I personally do not agree with these. Once you get use to them you can go just as fast with a zip-tie and if put on improperly it can break wires. The solution don't put it on too tight or use a mal-adjusted cable-tie tool.

[seak]

I'm not a big zip tie fan, cause they're a pain to get off. Personally, I've never had the tape fall off, but I also always check through at least 3 bodycords so I have a back-up. Then before heading off to a pool or DE's I simply check that I have all markers I need to, just like I check that I have my mask, glove and multiple weapons.

Really not that big a deal.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

You need the marker to do a few things:

*Stay on for several days

*Not break the cord

*Come off eventually


Now, in a college club setting, I was often handed a pile of body cords and had to get 5-10 cords tested at once before a meet. It was nice that I could get all the little tape marks off myself without a knife or scissors, which wouldn't be the case with zipties.

I've also never had the tape fall off when I was using it. I never heard any of the fencers on my team complain either (Although we never had cords tested on a multi-day event to my knowledge).


But here's my thing---- Sometimes, occasionally, the tape isn't put on perfectly at the table. You check the cord to make sure the tape looks like it'll stay, and then you move on. That's not that big an issue. But suppose everyone checks the tape, and it's all put on in a manner where, under normal use, it'll stay on.

What is the fencer doing to the body cord to make the tape fall off? And do we want the cord to continue to be valid for use after whatever the fencer did to it?


If you get a cord checked, and then put it in a blender(and turn the blender on), the cord isn't going to be valid for your next bout, even if the tape is still on......................

[brtech]

Properly applied tape doesn't come off in normal circumstances
Properly applied tie wraps don't come off in any circumstances.

The taper can misfire; the usual problem is that the two ends aren't aligned, or not pressed together. We check, but some times we miss the problem.

You can easily put a tie wrap together backwards, so that the ridges are not against the latch mechanism. It's easy to see that its wrong visually, but sometimes we miss it.

I don't like tie wraps. When tapers are not an option, I print labels and apply them to the 3 prong body. They can come off, but it's rarely a problem.

The considered opinion of the USFA armory staff is that tapers are the best solution. I don't see us changing. The guy who would make that call is Ron Herman. You can ask him, but I think he believes tapers are the best solution.

[TBean]

What is the occurrence of the problem versus the cost of other solutions. Personally I have never had tape fall off, in fact I had to remove the tape from both my body cords for the Pomme de Terre this weekend from the Chicago NAC. So the tape can last.

I think, like many other things, the fencers need to be aware and check. Some level of personal responsibility is reasonably expected. I believe once would probably be enough for this lesson to sink in, but you never know with teenagers.

[oiuyt]

Until armorers at national events started routinely requiring all old inspection tapes to be removed from cords it was common to see a rainbow of flags from previous events. I certainly had cords with 6, 7, or more such markings on them dating back a couple of seasons. Without ANY problems losing the markings before the end of a tournament.

While I've certainly carded people for absence of inspection mark (and had them earnestly tell me that the tape HAD been there*), it's hard for me to understand why my experience is so different.

When I'm fencing I ensure that all marks are properly applied before I leave the equipment check and have never had a problem.

-B

* Then again, it's a considerably more frequent occurance for me that I card people for absence of inspection marks on a mask, lamé, or cuff and have them similarly earnestly tell me that it had been inspected -- occasionally also stating that it had not only been inspected, but also marked. I generally assume that the athlete (and not infrequently their parent(s) and/or coach) is telling the truth and the tape (for cords) fell off or the stamp (everything else) wasn't applied after the passed inspection.

[brtech]

In a week of SNs, we'll get maybe 10 reports of the problem. That's not how many times it actually comes off, it's how many times someone brings a cord to us and tells us that's the problem.

Hint: we don't care. We test it again anyway.

[fencerX]

While I've certainly carded people for absence of inspection mark (and had them earnestly tell me that the tape HAD been there*)

Do you still card people for an absence of inspection mark when you yourself know the tape HAD been there at the start of the bout but is not there currently?

Funny story / trivia question ...

The score is tied at 3 - 3 in an epee pool bout. The ref calls "fence". After a few seconds fencer Y fleches at fencer Z, each fencer hits his opponent and the box registers two lights. On the walk back to his line fencer Y stops, looks, bends down and picks something up off the strip. It's body cord inspection tape. He looks back at his cord and sees it has tape. Fencer Y then looks and points out to the ref (and everyone clearly sees) that fencer Z's body cord no longer has inspection mark tape, even though it was there at the beginning of the bout.

What do the rules call for the referee to do? What would you do?

[Nolano]

I've actually had a little difficulty getting the tape off without a knife or something...

[jkdjeff]

My foil body cords still have the inspection mark tape on them from the last tournament I fenced that required them to be inspected.

That was in February.

[happy]

Do you still card people for an absence of inspection mark when you yourself know the tape HAD been there at the start of the bout but is not there currently?

I'm pretty sure the mark only has to be there when the fencer reports to the strip to avoid the card.

Another interesting scenario is if a director forgets to check fencer Z's body cord and during the bout realizes his mistake, checks it, and doesn't find a marker? Say it's 14-14 in a gold medal DE bout?

[happy]

In a week of SNs, we'll get maybe 10 reports of the problem. That's not how many times it actually comes off, it's how many times someone brings a cord to us and tells us that's the problem.

Hint: we don't care. We test it again anyway.

Interesting data. Probably some multiple of that number has them fall off.

I can think of a couple scenarios where the marker falls off without excessive abuse:

Cord is caught in something (blades, chair) when fencer stands up, scraping tape off
Undressing between pools/de - same situation
Misapplied tape falls off under normal handling

I don't have much sympathy for a fencer that doesn't check their cord before they put it on, it's the one who has it fall off that I pity.

But, as with life, there are many things in fencing you just have to 'deal with' and it would appear that body cord markers that require checking is one of them. There are a lot of these things in fencing, which I actually view as a positive - especially for young people since many kids are handheld through life and don't have to take responsibility for themselves. I guess I just feel that the penalty in this case is too severe, but I don't see that changing.

[fencerX]

I'm pretty sure the mark only has to be there when the fencer reports to the strip to avoid the card.

Then please explain how the penalties include anulling the last touch, if any, scored by the fencer.

Or have you seen fencers scoring touches before reporting to the strip?

[Zilverzmurfen]

There are two other reason given for not using zip-ties. One is the time involved and the other is it breaks wires.

I'm not a big zip tie fan, cause they're a pain to get off.

I was going to suggest you use "stripes" but then I Googled "zip-tie" and saw this was the same thing...

From a weapon checker's view I've only ever used stickers for body cord/mask/weapon markers. I've attended competitions where zip-ties have been used and they're far, far better. Unless you pull them real tight there's no problem with it damaging the wire, and it certainly both stays on and comes off as you like.

(I realise at your Summer Nationals you will have thousands and thousands of body cords checked, but I still think it'd be doable at a reasonable time space.)

[Pescados666]

Wouldn't something like pipe cleaners also work?
Just twist it a few times and don't make it larger than the 2-prong/bayonette end (if foil/saber) so it won't fall off. They wouldn't take that much longer then it would to do a pull tie or get it taped.

[telkanuru]

Then please explain how the penalties include anulling the last touch, if any, scored by the fencer.

Or have you seen fencers scoring touches before reporting to the strip?

Devil's advocate says- changing body cords mid-bout.

[downunder]

The score is tied at 3 - 3 in an epee pool bout. The ref calls "fence". After a few seconds fencer Y fleches at fencer Z, each fencer hits his opponent and the box registers two lights. On the walk back to his line fencer Y stops, looks, bends down and picks something up off the strip. It's body cord inspection tape. He looks back at his cord and sees it has tape. Fencer Y then looks and points out to the ref (and everyone clearly sees) that fencer Z's body cord no longer has inspection mark tape, even though it was there at the beginning of the bout.

I was asked a very similar question for my FIE refereeing exam/interogation, in terms of replacing a broken blade half way through the fight that was missing a control mark.

A literal reading of the rules suggests a confiscation of the blade, a red card and the annulment of the last hit scored by the defender - even though that particular hit was most likely scored correctly with conforming equipment .

[brtech]

Interesting data. Probably some multiple of that number has them fall off.

Who knows. Some of the reports are wrong (they confused cords) and some marks are lost without anyone noticing. It's not a significant multiple, if it is a multiple.

I can think of a couple scenarios where the marker falls off without excessive abuse:

Cord is caught in something (blades, chair) when fencer stands up, scraping tape off

Highly unlikely. Much more likely to pull the clip off -- we mark the clip on a foil cord. That just doesn't happen

Undressing between pools/de - same situation

See above, not likely

Misapplied tape falls off under normal handling

I believe this is the only problem

[thekoby]

wow, this is rather new to me. In all the years I've been fencing, I've never been to a tournament where they required me to prove that my body cord was tested and working properly or issued me tape, stamp, or zip-tie.

I typically tell my fencing students who are going to tournaments for the first time to make sure they have AT LEAST one back-up body cord and to test and retest everything before even leaving home, then testing everything again as soon as they get settled in at the event. I learned this the hard way when I put together an epee and it tested fine at my house, but somewhere along driving to a tournament my spring shifted and it failed the wieght test.

Body cords are somewhat easy to repair, so if you test it before leaving and it works fine, but then fails when you get to your destination, you can quickly mend the problem and retest it.

Now that I know about taping the body cord I'll be sure to start letting my students know about having something available to mark good cords from bad ones and talk to some local clubs that host annual events about it.