Difference in Lunge Instruction

[thekoby]

This has been a hot topic recently between me and a few other coaches in my area. I've been trying to develop a new way to instruct my new students how to make their lunges faster without compensating technique.

When I originally teach my students how to lunge I break it down to three simple steps: extend, front toe up (slightly), kick forward. This deffinately helps them understand how the lunge breaks down and how it is to function, but I began to notice when moving on to more advanced moves (advance lunge or redoublement) the lunges would either be slow or sloppy; the student's bodies would pitch forward with the throwing of their body wieght in a attempt to get out to the lunge faster.

This past season I came up with the idea of "dropping" your body. I taught the new method to a few of my advanced foil students with amazing results. Instead of the traditional kicking out of the front foot and the notion of moving forward or throwing yourself forward, I told my students to move their foot forward, but keep the body still and think of letting themselves fall straight down into their hips. The notion of moving faster comes from the basic rate of acceleration (32 ft. per second squared) and the movement forward comes from sliding one's foot in a forward direction to create a "nest" inside their hips for their upper body to rest. I noted welcoming increases in speed of the students' lunges as well as a surprising increase in correct technique with the upper body.

I'm basically looking for opinions on this idea as well as any other ideas on how I can increase the speed of a student's lunge without sacrificing his or her upper body technique.

[sabrpol]

I'm using simple exercise to teach kids properly lunge. Fencer standing in fencing position. You are using glove in this exercise. Under front leg you have glove ( hill on the glove) and then student have to kick the glove forward. It.s old technique but really work. Maybe you heard about this, but if you really want to improve lunge you should use special program and analyse film with lunge.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by sabrpol

I'm using simple exercise to teach kids properly lunge. Fencer standing in fencing position. You are using glove in this exercise. Under front leg you have glove ( hill on the glove) and then student have to kick the glove forward. It.s old technique but really work. Maybe you heard about this, but if you really want to improve lunge you should use special program and analyse film with lunge.

I've seen this type of description here before and I'm still somewhat puzzled; why all the emphasis on kicking out the front foot?

I understand that it supposedly gives some extra momentum (which has not been supported), but it seems to add extra movement in that the foot must then be brought back in the opposite direction to plant properly.

Obviously, the front foot needs to move forward, but I just don't get the advantage of this exaggerated "kick" foward. It really seems to complicate things unnecessarily.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

[sabrpol]

Yes that is true many coaches can think that is not necessary good exercise. In my opinion is very help full in teaching lunge. Of course I'm using some other exercises. I think this exercise is teaching the proper move. The best think is that you don't have to use complicated theory. We have to remember that at the first stage no kid will remember theory, but he will remember the simple and funny exercise like kicking the glove. If you have some interesting exercise write about them. I like to use some new and interesting stuff.


Creativity is the art of taking a fresh look at old knowledge

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

I've seen this type of description here before and I'm still somewhat puzzled; why all the emphasis on kicking out the front foot?

I understand that it supposedly gives some extra momentum (which has not been supported), but it seems to add extra movement in that the foot must then be brought back in the opposite direction to plant properly.

Obviously, the front foot needs to move forward, but I just don't get the advantage of this exaggerated "kick" foward. It really seems to complicate things unnecessarily.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Momentum has nothing to do with it. You want your front leg out straight and high, so you can reach as far forward as possible like this guy.

This is what happens at the end of the lunge. The heel touches down and the foot rolls forward as the knee bends. You don't have to bring anything back into position, it just does it.

[aamct2]

The benefit I've found to teach the lunge with a kick of the front foot (or better, a loosely-locked ankle so that the foot stays 90 degrees to the shin combined with a loose front knee so that the shin and foot can essentially dangle into to the correct position) is that it helps prevent the foot from being too loose and landing pointed in any direction. I've also found putting this idea into students' heads helps them remember to launch their front foot out farther so that the knee ends up over the ankle at the end of a deep/long lunge (the foot lands at the end of their momentum rather than before it).

The danger of this is that the students need to remember that the lunge happens from the back-leg, not the front. All that above it just for placement of the front foot at the end, the lunge itself occurs from the back-leg. Putting too much attention on the front-foot/leg can be misleading to them without extra explanation.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by thekoby

I've been trying to develop a new way to instruct my new students how to make their lunges faster without compensating technique....I'm basically looking for opinions on this idea as well as any other ideas on how I can increase the speed of a student's lunge without sacrificing his or her upper body technique.

I've never really worked to make a student's lunge "faster." I don't know that I've ever seen a student whose problem was that they weren't going fast enough. (Not just in the lunge, in any aspect of their fencing. That is, I don't remember ever telling a student, "You need to go faster.")

Generally, if the fencer creates a good opportunity at the right distance and makes a good lunge, it's fast enough.

So my concerns lately have been

• teach the student to recognize the "right" distance
• teach the student how to create opportunities and get to that distance
• correct any problems in the student's footwork so that they are more likely to be well-balanced when they get to that distance
• make sure that the student can make a good lunge

For the balance and the good lunge, one good starting point is simply to learn, understand, and teach the exercises that David Litell has posted online.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by thekoby

When I originally teach my students how to lunge I break it down to three simple steps: extend, front toe up (slightly), kick forward. This deffinately helps them understand how the lunge breaks down and how it is to function, but I began to notice when moving on to more advanced moves (advance lunge or redoublement) the lunges would either be slow or sloppy; the student's bodies would pitch forward with the throwing of their body wieght in a attempt to get out to the lunge faster.

This past season I came up with the idea of "dropping" your body. I taught the new method to a few of my advanced foil students with amazing results. Instead of the traditional kicking out of the front foot and the notion of moving forward or throwing yourself forward, I told my students to move their foot forward, but keep the body still and think of letting themselves fall straight down into their hips. The notion of moving faster comes from the basic rate of acceleration (32 ft. per second squared) and the movement forward comes from sliding one's foot in a forward direction to create a "nest" inside their hips for their upper body to rest.

I'll make a couple of comments here.

First, in your description of teaching your students to lunge, you stopped half way. If this is the way you are teaching the lunge, it might be part of the problem. After a small kick of the front foot, the back leg must put power and speed behind the lunge. If the fencer is emphasizing just the kick, then their lunges will be slow and in a "ballistic" trajectory (up and then down).

Second. Gravity is not your friend. I think you've come to the correct conclusion (keeping the hips down and the center of gravity low) but the goal of the lunge is to reach out, and while simply giving a kick and dropping the hips will result in a slightly faster lunge (if I am imagining your method correctly), the lunge will lack power, and worse, it will lack control. The student must be able to vary the length and speed of the lunge. Simply letting gravity control the lunge is not optimal for this.

The front leg has a job to do in the lunge, but it is eclipsed by the work that the back leg has to do. Too many fencers (and coaches) ignore that.

AE

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

You want your front leg out straight and high, so you can reach as far forward as possible

I think that I'd still want the student to reach out with his front leg even if he's making a short lunge.

I agree that the front leg simply rolls through the front heel into a good lunge position. In fact, that's why I thought that we taught the student to reach forward with the front leg. The back leg provides a lot of forward momentum in the lunge. If they don't reach forward, what stops the momentum when they get to the end of the lunge? If they have reached out with the front foot, that heel strike and bending of the front leg helps to accept the weight into the front leg in a natural and efficient way. The student ends up in a nice lunge "position," relaxed and ready for the next action.

I believe that coaches teach the "kick" because they're trying to correct or prevent the problem where a fencer lifts the front foot straight up off of the floor, does not extend the knee at all, lunges (pushes with the back leg), dropping the foot straight down at some point to stop the lunge. If the student does that, he will often stop the lunge's momentum by bending excessively through or over the front knee and foot. Alternatively, he'll simply try to stop his momentum by becoming very rigid just at the end of the lunge, locking his knee, ankle, and hips (and often shoulder, back, and elbow) to "freeze" in that perfect lunge position. That's fine, as long as he never wants to do anything after the lunge.

I think that the problem is talking about it as a "kick." I think that this word gives many students the wrong mental idea of what they should be doing. To me, it feels more like reaching forward than kicking. When I think of reaching with the front foot, it's easier for me to keep my weight on my back leg so that I can get a good push from the lunge and not break my torso forward incorrectly. Again, I really like some of the exercises in David Littell's videos for developing the right motion here (mostly in videos 2 and 3), but I've never used them with beginners. Generally, I've used those exercises with fencers who had already learned footwork using a different system and set of exercises.

[jBirch]

There's also a number of different types of lunge, depending upon the situation.

1) The "short" lunge.

This is often seen in epee and is characterised by a snappy hand extension and a half step with the front foot. It is really good for "following up" forward and chasing a reluctant opponent down. It also leaves a good position for a quick exit backwards. In some circumstances, the body is full on to the opponent. In others, it is back about 35 degrees.

2) The "classic" lunge.

This is a reaching of the blade toward the opponent and a progressive dropping of the hips. The key is that the fencer feels "stretched out" during the movement and the lunge stops. The lunge is slower then the short lunge, but has a lot more distance. The fencer is stretched out, but not too much. The fencer ends in the "classic" lunge position,with the rear leg straight, both feet flat on the ground, the front calf perpendicular to the floor, the arms fully outstretched, the head up and the body relatively sideways.

3) The modern lunge

In this, the student is asked to get their tip to go as far toward the target as possible. It is often characterised by a HUGE push from the rear leg, the rear knee almost touching the ground, the ankle rolling, a "sliding" feature of the back foot and the body relatively square to the target at terminus. It has a lot of momentum, so it is sometimes characterised by an "over-lean" on the front knee.

4) The "fake" lunge.

This is the short lunge that "rolls" into a fleche and is characterised often by a withheld hand and an early landing front foot. This can be desceptively long as the transition from lunge to fleche can be performed remarkably smoothly. It's often used against a "distance parrier" who likes to retreat out of lunge distance, but then "turn the corner" and attack.

I like to think of lunges as being a function of their goal and not a stylistic ideal. That said though, the first lunge I teach is the classic lunge and for a while at least, I'm pretty anal about making sure that it is classically correct.

After the student is reasonably comfortable with that though, we tend to leave the lunge as a static position behind and work on timing and footwork transitions, the lunge being simply another element of footwork that we employ.

Hope this helps.

James.

[thekoby]

First, in your description of teaching your students to lunge, you stopped half way. If this is the way you are teaching the lunge, it might be part of the problem. After a small kick of the front foot, the back leg must put power and speed behind the lunge. If the fencer is emphasizing just the kick, then their lunges will be slow and in a "ballistic" trajectory (up and then down).

Second. Gravity is not your friend. I think you've come to the correct conclusion (keeping the hips down and the center of gravity low) but the goal of the lunge is to reach out, and while simply giving a kick and dropping the hips will result in a slightly faster lunge (if I am imagining your method correctly), the lunge will lack power, and worse, it will lack control. The student must be able to vary the length and speed of the lunge. Simply letting gravity control the lunge is not optimal for this.

Yes, you did understand my discription correctly and gave some insight that the other coaches I've been talking to did not bring up or failed to see as I did, and I completely agree that it does not provide the "forward" power of a lunge from the back foot. However, at the time that I am teaching my students how to lunge I am more concerned with getting them acustomed to moving into a lunge quickly and keeping thier body wieght centered so they can quickly recover in the case of an optimal counter-reposte. Perhaps modifying the original 3-step method I've been using to this:

1. Extend the arm
2. Front toe up slightly
3. Push forward with the back leg (instead of kick forward with the front)

I'm using simple exercise to teach kids properly lunge. Fencer standing in fencing position. You are using glove in this exercise. Under front leg you have glove ( hill on the glove) and then student have to kick the glove forward. It.s old technique but really work. Maybe you heard about this, but if you really want to improve lunge you should use special program and analyse film with lunge.

As far as this method goes, I've used it before, but instead of a glove I have used a quarter placed at the arch of the foot, explaining that if performed correctly, your foot should travel no higher than the width of a quarter along the floor, so if one is placed at the arch of the foot, your heel should catch it as you push forward and slide it across the room. This helps me with a common problem I was having when I first started teaching the lunge where my students would do a "Clydesdale" step into the lunge. Of course after showing my students this trick, my coach would show off a bit and use a dime :-p

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by thekoby

Perhaps modifying the original 3-step method I've been using to this:

1. Extend the arm
2. Front toe up slightly
3. Push forward with the back leg (instead of kick forward with the front)

I think you should re-read my post, and that of jBirch's as well. You need to involve both legs in lunging, the front AND the back. Dave Littel's video's (I believe others have posted links to them on the this thread) are also VERY useful, though not the last word in lunging.

AE

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I think you should re-read my post, and that of jBirch's as well. You need to involve both legs in lunging, the front AND the back. Dave Littel's video's (I believe others have posted links to them on the this thread) are also VERY useful, though not the last word in lunging.

AE

Okay, I see what are you saying. not really modify the 3-step process, but keep it the same way I've been teaching it and add a fourth step with the push of the rear leg.

I like to think of lunges as being a function of their goal and not a stylistic ideal. That said though, the first lunge I teach is the classic lunge and for a while at least, I'm pretty anal about making sure that it is classically correct.

I really have to agree with jbirch on this idea of teaching the classical lunge, which is what I'm attempting to do. I try to stray from teaching a modern lunge to new students as I feel they should know how to do things in the correct or classical fashion before stepping up to something more advanced. I, too, tend to be rather anal about posture in the lunge: is the front calf perpindicular, the back leg locked, both feet flat, arms out stretched, body straight and turned profile? This is why I've been looking for a different method of teaching a lunge and have been test the "drop" method (as I'll call it) with some of my students (not all of them).

Perhaps a slight combination of the classical method and my "drop" method where they thrust forward , propelled by the rear leg and a slight kick from the front leg, and letting their body drop into their hips as they land in the classical stance. I'm really looking to rid myself of the problem of having my students throw their wieght forward, thus making a quick recover slightly harder.

[Allen Evans]

There is no difference between the "classic" lunge and the drop method you're describing. The "classic" lunges should involve the mechanisms you're talking about. Otherwise, it's just a bad lunge: a forward kick of the front foot with no speed or power.

AE

ps - a locked back knee is not an admirable goal in the lunge. The leg should be straight, but locking the joint should be discouraged.

[thekoby]

Thanks for the insight.

If I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps I should tell my students to feel as if they are dropping straight down, rather than doing it.

ps - a locked back knee is not an admirable goal in the lunge. The leg should be straight, but locking the joint should be discouraged.

sorry, locking the back knee was a wrong choice of wording on my part....it's 8am and I've been awake for 26 hours now....perhaps I should sleep a bit :-)

[tdwg83]

Originally Posted by thekoby

Thanks for the insight.

If I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps I should tell my students to feel as if they are dropping straight down, rather than doing it.



sorry, locking the back knee was a wrong choice of wording on my part....it's 8am and I've been awake for 26 hours now....perhaps I should sleep a bit :-)

The first thing that comes to mind is when you described dropping your body for a lunge. The way I was corrected to do a lunge was that your shoulders generally need to be the same height when you start and when you stop. Otherwise your fencers have just developed a "tell". That is when opponents see their their center of gravity move they will know a lunge is coming.

You have the foundation for a good lunge.

1. Extend
2. Toe up
3. front leg kicks/back leg pushes

If we are talking about balance. You should be able to got up on your toes in an engarde position to see where your weight is distributed. If you move forward your wait is too far back. You should go straight up on your toes. Execute the same check in the lunge. if your body moves forward on your toes then your weight is not right.

About speed. Before this is address the lunge must be perfect every time. your body must know position. Then you condition your body to move to position faster. Weight training and resistance training are two methods. Also running/sprinting and jump rope.

[MdA]

I agree with Allen and JBirch on the modern lunge. There are several types of lunges ..but for begginers, stick with the modern lunge. It is the type they should be doing most often at the begginning.

The most important thing is to push with power from the back leg. This is how you increase speed and power... faster than 32 fps2.

[MdA]

Oh...and the glove thing is only really good for correctly people who land with their toes first on the front foot.