College Fencing

[tchwojko]

I wasn't saying that all schools or colleges in my area are clubs, just naming a few that I knew of. There are several small colleges in and around Indiana that may offer fencing, but doesn't really have a club set up.



Some people do look for a club's USFA membership. Yes, you are correct that a club does not have to hold a membership for the fencer to compete at other events, but in order to host a USFA-sanctioned tournament, they must hold active membership. Some schools hold small tournaments as a way of "cheating" (so to speak) and have their members gain quick and easy ratings.



I was mearly referring to the point that Notre Dame and Purdue (and possibly IU) has someone who is not a student of the university teaching their fencing lessons, but also have students within their club or group that assisst them when they cannot be there or have a larger class (typically their best fencers). I'm sure there are some people looking out there for this nice feature. Honestly, I would love it if Ball State had the money available to hire and outside coach, but since we can barely afford maintain what good equipment we have this idea has been put on the backburner.

Good thing you're in college.* Your writing, reading comprehension and logic all need a little work. (Doing some research before answering the question would be helpful as well...)

Northwestern has a varsity NCAA Div I women's team (ranked 6th last time I checked). It also has a men's/co-ed club.

The men's team used to be varsity, but was disbanded due to Title IX. (Please find the appropriate thread for a discussion about Title IX. I have no beef with it.) It's still fairly competitive, but I don't think you get anywhere near the experience or support** with a club vs. varsity.

If you want to be serious about both fencing and academics, you really need to find a school with a varsity team. If the fencing is a hobby, you just need to be in a competitive area with tournaments available both in the colleges and the division.

*I'm assuming you're in college by the tone of the post. I didn't see any concrete evidence. Sorry if I assumed incorrectly.
**The fencing team always had one of the highest GPAs among the varsity sports, so we didn't need much help, but it was there. Each year many of the fencers would get a letter from the Athletic Director either congratulating each of us on our academics or warning us that we were slipping. One year I got both.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

If you want to be serious about both fencing and academics, you really need to find a school with a varsity team. If the fencing is a hobby, you just need to be in a competitive area with tournaments available both in the colleges and the division.

Ennnnnnnh....... That's certainly the easiest way. It's not always the best way.

You also have to pick the right varsity program, and hope that it happens to exist at the same school that's appropriate academically.

[tchwojko]

Ennnnnnnh....... That's certainly the easiest way. It's not always the best way.

You also have to pick the right varsity program, and hope that it happens to exist at the same school that's appropriate academically.

Certainly. I'm making a few simplifying assumptions:
1. There are schools that are sufficiently good both in fencing and chosen academics to satisfy the student.
2. Going to a private club is less ideal because of added cost and time (but it's certainly an option).
3. I'm sure there are other holes in my statements, but I'll leave those as exercises for the readers.

I'll stick with the gist of my premise, though: Varsity > Club for serious fencing growth. The cost is picked up by the school, there are support services specifically targeted for NCAA athletes and teams, there is more stability in the program, and more opportunities for high level competition.

[mrbiggs]

I'll stick with the gist of my premise, though: Varsity > Club for serious fencing growth.

Not always. Close to always, but not always. The very top club teams in the country have very good fencing, usually supported by a strong coach and training schedule, and are generally competitive with weaker NCAA schools in terms of results and therefore, I would argue, development.

In general you're correct, but I think it's worth mentioning that if you're down to a choice between a top club school and a weak varsity school (assuming all else equal of course), the varsity school will not always have stronger fencing.

[Neinteen]

why would a school do away with varsity yet still have a coach and club? I mean what's the point of taking away varsity?

[tchwojko]

why would a school do away with varsity yet still have a coach and club? I mean what's the point of taking away varsity?

Northwestern did it for Title IX. I'm not sure what the arrangement of women's varsity vs. men's (technically co-ed) club is now, and how much they share resources.

Just like the rest of academia, there are hoops to jump through to be "official." Have fun with that.

[mrbiggs]

why would a school do away with varsity yet still have a coach and club? I mean what's the point of taking away varsity?

It's often the case that the school just doesn't care at all about fencing and it tries to get rid of it, and it's only a long, concerted effort by students and others that allows the coach and club to exist. Clubs are not always well-supported by the school, so the school goes from having to worry about a varsity team with a coach, meets, and the like, to having to (at most) give the fencers a yearly budget and some gym space. The fencers themselves organize the rest, with the help of a coach or alumni if they're lucky.

The second answer is Title IX, although for some reason even when schools give this excuse, the women's fencing program is cut as well. This is often the case for the several schools with a women's varsity and men's club team.

A third answer is money, although there are plenty of club teams that would like NCAA status with the same budget, so this isn't always the correct answer either.

And the fourth answer is "I don't know." Athletics departments at universities are very large and bureaucratic, and no fun to deal with. Sometimes they do things for no reason, or won't tell you, or the reason they give is obviously untrue (like the women's teams cut under title IX).

[tchwojko]

In general you're correct, but I think it's worth mentioning that if you're down to a choice between a top club school and a weak varsity school (assuming all else equal of course), the varsity school will not always have stronger fencing.

Absolutely, and the same is true for the academics. There might be a mediocre school that has that one professor who is one of the leaders of the specific subject you want to study.

It's a lot like looking for good wines. Just because one is priced more than another doesn't mean that you'll like it more, or even that it's drinkable.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

why would a school do away with varsity yet still have a coach and club? I mean what's the point of taking away varsity?

Money.

When Smith gets enough money to increase the athletics program, Fencing will be the next NCAA sport. However, there is a certain level that Smith promises to support all NCAA sports (both in terms of money from the athletics funds, physical space, but also increased drain on athletic trainers and other staff....) that they don't promise to Club sports.

Club sports have trainer hours about twice a week, the NCAA trainers are there most of the day all day (and they're happy to talk to the club sports people when they don't have a varsity athlete there, and they'll always help in an emergency, but we're not a priority). If any NCAA team needs space during our practice, they have preference. Our coach isn't paid as much as he would be if we were varsity. We get our own hoodies printed rather than having someone else deal with getting warmups. Etc, etc.

For Smith, it's only a money issue. For other teams, usually money is at the root of the problem, but may not be the topical issue.

[sheck]

why would a school do away with varsity yet still have a coach and club? I mean what's the point of taking away varsity?

Another factor not mentioned. The ACC and Big Ten dropped men's fencing as a official conference sport (early 1980s). I don't think any men's only (the majority) varsity programs survived.

[Soberin]

Not always. Close to always, but not always. The very top club teams in the country have very good fencing, usually supported by a strong coach and training schedule, and are generally competitive with weaker NCAA schools in terms of results and therefore, I would argue, development.

In general you're correct, but I think it's worth mentioning that if you're down to a choice between a top club school and a weak varsity school (assuming all else equal of course), the varsity school will not always have stronger fencing.

Would you care to list those clubs that have fencers on the Junior or Senior points lists? My first guess would be zero, but as usual, I could be incorrect.

[seak]

Tom Hennig has been on both the Junior and Senior points list while at William and Mary and fencing on their club team (granted his primary coach is Allen Evans, and he takes lessons at Dominion).

Florida has had various people on points lists I believe etc. Also very few weak varsity teams have points list fencers.

[AndrewH]

Would you care to list those clubs that have fencers on the Junior or Senior points lists? My first guess would be zero, but as usual, I could be incorrect.

*raises hand*

[KD5MDK]

Would you care to list those clubs that have fencers on the Junior or Senior points lists? My first guess would be zero, but as usual, I could be incorrect.

Ben Nichols was on the Senior and Jr points lists last year in MF.

[Wafath]

Yes, there are strong fencers in collegiate club fencing. And yes, the strongest varsity programs are stronger than the strongest club programs. Both have their positives; it really depends on what you want out of your collegiate fencing career.

But back to the original question, I would say that there is no single metric that can tell you if you will have a positive collegiate fencing experience. There are exceptions to almost every rule.

The most important thing you can do is to talk with the fencers at the school you are evaluating. The administration, the counselors, even the coach: they don't have a good idea what it is like to fence there. The fencers will know as much as anyone what the perks are, but they will also give you a feel for what the culture is like, what the expectations are, and what the problems are.

W

[epeemike81]

I believe Joel Katz was on the lists before going to USNA. Not sure if Isaac Erbele was actually on the points lists while at USMA (care to clarify, Isaac?), but was certainly on them nearly immediately after graduation. Rob Bralow fenced for Northwestern at club nationals....

Rutgers is the best example of a strong team right now, though that's clearly skewed by their recent NCAA status.

clearly, the stong club teams are BY FAR weaker than the strong varsity teams (Ohio State, Penn State, St. John's, Columbia, Notre Dame), but when you're talking about comparing the best club teams to some of the weaker or mid level varsities, the clubs may well be better.

Btw, as to how much shared resources there are between Men's club and Women's varsity at Northwestern, they at the least share the most important resource: Coaching.

-m

[Mr.MightyMouse]

IMHO - N-teen; if you see yourself fencing at a high level past college, and high meaning internationally - I can not see any club program advancing you properly during extremely important formative years; as probably 50-60% of NCAA ones as well; altho' as been pointed out, there are always exceptions to the rule.

[mrbiggs]

Would you care to list those clubs that have fencers on the Junior or Senior points lists? My first guess would be zero, but as usual, I could be incorrect.

There are a couple here and there, but my point is that not all NCAA teams have fencers on the point list either. No club team is as good as even mediocre varsity teams at this point by any standard. However, the very best club teams can be as good as the worst varsity teams in terms of results.

I'm just saying that if you're at that borderline level then you shouldn't rule out club teams before looking into their results.

[mrbiggs]

IMHO - N-teen; if you see yourself fencing at a high level past college, and high meaning internationally - I can not see any club program advancing you properly during extremely important formative years; as probably 50-60% of NCAA ones as well; altho' as been pointed out, there are always exceptions to the rule.

I don't think there are exceptions to the rule at this point, but not everyone is going to fence internationally. If that's your goal then by all means you should apply to an NCAA school, and one of the top several schools in your weapon.

[KD5MDK]

Or you might pick a school that's a better fit for you with a great professional club nearby. I've heard of elite fencers who think fencing NCAA will degrade their performance.