Took a good shot to the throat today

[D'Artagnan1673]

Wow... my second night back to fencing and I suffered the most painful thrust in all the years I've fenced. My mates said the blow missed the jugular vein by just a hair. I don't know what that type of force would have done to me, but I am glad we didn't find out.

It was the first touch of the night. I lunged deep and he counterattacked to the throat. It wasn't a fast/out of control lunge, but he was using a pretty stiff gold blade. According to witnessess, I bring my head up (like I was classical trained) so high that there's 1-1.5 inches of opening to were a blade can bypass my bib and hit the throat.

After looking at the bibs of my clubmates' masks, I see that my bib is stiffer and doesn't angle enough. It's an Uhlmann FIE 2002 mask. Other than, stuffing the bib under the mesh to force it to have a curve, can anyone think of another way to fix this?

Hope this makes sense. I can post pictures of the mask tomorrow afternoon if necessary.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by D'Artagnan1673

According to witnessess, I bring my head up (like I was classical trained) so high that there's 1-1.5 inches of opening to were a blade can bypass my bib and hit the throat.

After looking at the bibs of my clubmates' masks, I see that my bib is stiffer and doesn't angle enough. It's an Uhlmann FIE 2002 mask. Other than, stuffing the bib under the mesh to force it to have a curve, can anyone think of another way to fix this?

Hope this makes sense. I can post pictures of the mask tomorrow afternoon if necessary.

1) don't put your head up like an SCAer. If you are sport fencing, hold your head like a sport fencer. Uhlmann didn't make their masks to be used in any other way.

2) this smells like one or two noobs (or people who never advanced from noob stage despite fencing for a long time) bouting who probably should not be bouting yet. Those hard shots are usually because one or both of the fencers do not understand distance, timing, speed and proper technique.

Last week I was reffing two such people in foil. After 2.5 minutes of ugly jabbing and off target lights, fencer A actually managed to jab his foil into the BACK hand of his opponent (which was well behind and out of the way) - causing the blade to enter the fleshy part between the thumb and forefinger. 2 stitches. BACK hand people. In foil! This is how bad some people are.

Remember noobs of the world: soft soft soft. You don't get any points for hitting harder!

[whiteandbluefencer]

Wow, I've never heard of anyone needing stitches from fencing! I've gotten hit on the off hand more than once (I fence foil), but I've never been really hurt. I've also taken hits to the throat, but never under my bib. I use a Leon Paul FIE mask and the bib is amazing during hits to the throat... they aren't at all painful. I'm not sure what you can do about your bib D'Artagnan1673. Bending it back while your not wearing it might help to reform it, but I think you ought to take Grasshopper's advise and change your posture. Either way, I should think that there should never be a point where your bare skin is exposed during the bout.

[SJCFU#2]

Is your bib sticking out rather than down? Sometimes they get that way due to poor packing. If so, then force the bib down into a proper position when not in use and hold it in this position until it retains the proper shape (it may take a while to "retrain" the fabric to hold this new shape).

[nyacfencing]

Originally Posted by whiteandbluefencer

Wow, I've never heard of anyone needing stitches from fencing!

Clearly you haven't seen last year's pictures of Nicholas Vomero's hand with the broken epee blade still through it. It penetrated right through the center (courtesy of Brendan Baby) and doctors had to remove the blade and stitch up all the tendons. We had a similar incident happen to Vassil Etropolski in saber this season.

Clearly the NYAC is a tough place to train in more than one way.

[TBean]

Originally Posted by D'Artagnan1673

According to witnessess, I bring my head up (like I was classical trained) so high that there's 1-1.5 inches of opening to were a blade can bypass my bib and hit the throat.

Don't do this. Just because you this is how you were trained does mean it is safe - work on keeping your head down so as not to expose your neck.

Originally Posted by D'Artagnan1673

Other than, stuffing the bib under the mesh to force it to have a curve, can anyone think of another way to fix this?

As I stated before, this is not just an equipment issue. While trying to get your bib to sit better is needed, attention to your own form should be a part of the solution.

[Gav]

I was stabbed in the leg a wee bit back. That was painful - didn't require stitches.
My old coach was run through at one point. I imagine that was painful. As far as I know he didn't require stitches.
However I do know someone how got a Foil in the head (yes in the head) fencing for team GB in the 70s. I think the surgery he needed required stitches.

On the whole fencing is a sport where I don't think the actual injuries should need much in the way of stitches.

[headcut]

Originally Posted by D'Artagnan1673

It was the first touch of the night. I lunged deep and he counterattacked to the throat. It wasn't a fast/out of control lunge, but he was using a pretty stiff gold blade. According to witnessess, I bring my head up (like I was classical trained) so high that there's 1-1.5 inches of opening to were a blade can bypass my bib and hit the throat.

... Other than, stuffing the bib under the mesh to force it to have a curve, can anyone think of another way to fix this?

There will always be issues of double attacks and being too close as long as there will be fencing. If you would feel safer, there is a throat guard made for hockey goalies. Kinda like a sweat band with protection. Goalies are always subject to getting hit by pucks and getting cut by errant skates to the neck (when they're down). You could check them out and see if this is something that would suffice in the interim. I hope your opponent wasn't intentionally going for the throat...

[Peach]

Although it's commendable to focus on ways an individual fencer can prevent this kind of injury, I'd also suggest we ought to consider the likelihood that the bib of any mask is not an ideal design. I am often hit in the throat underneath the bib (I'm a sabre fencer), and I don't keep my chin high. I was once knocked to the strip by an opponent's lunge to the throat, and couldn't get my voice to work for a minute or so. The "lip" on the jacket generally catches it, but it's one of my major worries.

I consider it a serious safety issue in fencing and I don't know why more people aren't hit there. A fellow veteran was hit in the neck so seriously she required emergency care--was that last year's Summer Nationals?

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by Peach

I'd also suggest we ought to consider the likelihood that the bib of any mask is not an ideal design. I am often hit in the throat underneath the bib (I'm a sabre fencer), and I don't keep my chin high. I was once knocked to the strip by an opponent's lunge to the throat, and couldn't get my voice to work for a minute or so. The "lip" on the jacket generally catches it, but it's one of my major worries.

Many years ago I knew someone who added a flap to the front of his jacket that would extend up to cover the the lower portion of the bib. It seemed like a reasonable idea at the time (it's a lot easier to protect the throat if it's difficult for a blade to get underneath the bib to begin with). He was an épéeist so coverage of target was not a concern, and about the only way I could see for a point to get caught in there would be if it were come in from above. Still, I noticed that he never bother to add a new flap when he replaced that jacket so perhaps there were other problems of which I am unaware.

[MdA]

I think it is time to get a new mask! There are several models that offer larger bibs.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by MdA

I think it is time to get a new mask! There are several models that offer larger bibs.

I might agree if this were an old foil mask from the days when the maximum size for the bib on a foil mask was shorter than the minimum size for an épée mask. However the OP has already identified the mask as a 2002 Uhlmann FIE. As such the bib is required to be "fixed to the exterior of the grille starting from the reinforcement band onwards and extending as protection for the neck for a total height of the order of 10–12 cm."

[MdA]

2002 is old by my standards. Get a new mask with a bigger bib or risk another shot in the throat.

[SJCFU#2]

Originally Posted by MdA

2002 is old by my standards. Get a new mask with a bigger bib or risk another shot in the throat.

But the standards haven't changed (the requirement I quoted dates back about 10 years). Assuming the old bib was legal to begin with a new bib won't be significantly larger.

[MdA]

D'Artagnan1673 said that the bib curled up and asked how it could be fixed. My advice is not to mess with it and get a new one with a bib that stays down.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Originally Posted by MdA

D'Artagnan1673 said that the bib curled up and asked how it could be fixed. My advice is not to mess with it and get a new one with a bib that stays down.

Sorry for the confusion. The bib goes straight down at a 90 degree angle (I will post a picture of myself wearing the mask tonight). In order to make the bib have a more pronounced angle, I am curling it into the mesh like seen in the picture attached.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

1) don't put your head up like an SCAer. If you are sport fencing, hold your head like a sport fencer. Uhlmann didn't make their masks to be used in any other way.

2) this smells like one or two noobs (or people who never advanced from noob stage despite fencing for a long time) bouting who probably should not be bouting yet. Those hard shots are usually because one or both of the fencers do not understand distance, timing, speed and proper technique.


Remember noobs of the world: soft soft soft. You don't get any points for hitting harder!

...

Let us, just for the moment, get past my form.

Neither of us were out of control. My opponent has 11 months of fencing and he's quite clean. My lunge was executed at good distance and his counterattack did not bend the blade... and therein lies the problem (so I think):

He was using a gold foil purchased from Blade fencing. He allowed me to handle the blade after the bout, and it was the stiffest foil I had ever handled. As stated before, I don't think was not a distance issue.

... so the modern lunge differs so much that even the head is not brought back? Just for grins... I'll post a picture of myself lunging while wearing jacket and mask so that we can judge facts rather than make ascertations.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

But the standards haven't changed (the requirement I quoted dates back about 10 years). Assuming the old bib was legal to begin with a new bib won't be significantly larger.

Here's a side profile of my mask.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Originally Posted by headcut

There will always be issues of double attacks and being too close as long as there will be fencing. If you would feel safer, there is a throat guard made for hockey goalies. Kinda like a sweat band with protection. Goalies are always subject to getting hit by pucks and getting cut by errant skates to the neck (when they're down). You could check them out and see if this is something that would suffice in the interim. I hope your opponent wasn't intentionally going for the throat...

I don't think there was any intention. I've only met him twice, but he's a very gentle man and he appeared genuinely concerned after the incident. It caused the back of my head to hurt for a few seconds, but I was able to continue and fence two bouts after the incident.