Screaming: Jesus, Mariel. Really?

[kuroutesshin]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

You will have a short refereeing career outside of the local level, I believe. One of the important things in a referee is to follow the accepted standards and practices along with the other referees so that fencers can receive a consistent experience as much as possible. Carding fencers for screaming or talking unless it is excessive is not in line with the standard practices.

Except it's a consistent enforcing of the rules. At the MFCs this past year I saw a semifinal bout in Women's Sabre between two varsity teams- one competitor screamed, every single touch, at the director. Looking directly at him, screaming full on- I could see, she had a lexan mask. None of the FOC emmbers (and there were one or two there) batted an eye.

The other fencer screamed every single time at her opponent- not the director. She was reprimanded for it! Tell me- why is the "accepted standard" to allow a fencer to scream, shout, and rave at the person officiating the bout, but not the person with whom they are fencing?

The excuse of "consistent experience" is utterly ridiculous when the standards of the sport become about who can shout the loudest, and not about who made the parry or whose attack failed. If that's not the case, the sport just ceased to be about skill and became one that focuses on lung strength.

[cyranorocks]

Originally Posted by Falchion

Fencing comes from long tradition of utilizing various tactics to thwart the opposition. It is the modern version of dueling after all.

Uh.., no.., it's not.

[Delta]

Originally Posted by kuroutesshin

Except it's a consistent enforcing of the rules. At the MFCs this past year I saw a semifinal bout in Women's Sabre between two varsity teams- one competitor screamed, every single touch, at the director. Looking directly at him, screaming full on- I could see, she had a lexan mask. None of the FOC emmbers (and there were one or two there) batted an eye.

The other fencer screamed every single time at her opponent- not the director. She was reprimanded for it! Tell me- why is the "accepted standard" to allow a fencer to scream, shout, and rave at the person officiating the bout, but not the person with whom they are fencing?

The excuse of "consistent experience" is utterly ridiculous when the standards of the sport become about who can shout the loudest, and not about who made the parry or whose attack failed. If that's not the case, the sport just ceased to be about skill and became one that focuses on lung strength.

I've seen some women scream at each other, spittle and attitudes flying everywhere. I think the idea is not to provoke the other fencer with screaming, where as a fencer can look at the call the director is making while celebrating "her" touch. I don't know if I could stifle a yell right after making a touch just so I could look at the director so I know that no one be offended.

If you look at other sports, yelling is used as a tactic. I wouldn't say it's clean, but its something that's not against the rules because it would be considered a hindrance to the maximum potential of the game.

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by kuroutesshin

Except it's a consistent enforcing of the rules. At the MFCs this past year I saw a semifinal bout in Women's Sabre between two varsity teams- one competitor screamed, every single touch, at the director. Looking directly at him, screaming full on- I could see, she had a lexan mask. None of the FOC emmbers (and there were one or two there) batted an eye.

You have just illustrated the prevailing interpretation. If you think you can hold your own and enforce the rules as you saw fit, as I said you'll have a very short career.

[Falchion]

Originally Posted by cyranorocks

Uh.., no.., it's not.

Should I interpret your stammering to represent an actual argument or point of view?

Uh...well...,Uh...,Ok.

[cyranorocks]

Originally Posted by Falchion

Should I interpret your stammering to represent an actual argument or point of view?

Uh...well...,Uh...,Ok.

You'll interpret how you will.

Fencing is not the modern manifestation of duello. Fencing is a sport. Nothing is at stake but a touch and a score. Sure, the outcome might affect life (effort invested, emotions, drive for points and medals).., but our competitions are not life and death affairs. Prestige may be involved, but not our "honor" (as classically regarded) is not at stake. Fencing is not even "swordsmanship" as a martial art.

Taisen Deshimaru captured my feelings best in his book "The Zen Way to the Martial Arts."

"I have nothing against sports, they train the body and develop stamina and endurance. But the spirit of competition and power that presides over them is not good, it reflects a distorted vision of life. The root of the martial arts is not there..."

None of this should be seen as belittling fencing. I really enjoy fencing as one part of my life. I respect that it is a greater or lesser part of the lives of others. No matter how great a part of our lives, however, I doubt it would ever rise to the significance of dueling in the lives of men who were guided by "Codes of Honor".

[jkdjeff]

I'm a former martial artist (check my username for a hint as to which one, but it's not an art that is primarily about competition) and a current fencer: the divide between the mindsets of the two is much, much smaller than martial artists would have you think.

Very few people train with an eye towards actual life-or-death combat these days. Even those who study a "real" martial art normally do so with the objectives of fitness and spiritual/mental development as their primary aim.

I trained for five years (I still train from time to time but not regularly) and used my skills in a self-defense situation exactly twice, neither of which I would categorize as life-or-death.

I considered myself as much a warrior then as I do now. That is, not much at all.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Craig

Inq. Where does your "attempt to influence the referee" end/begin?

How abot we start with things that a fencer states in print were done to influence the referee?

IMO that rule is too subjective to be enforced. What constitutes and attempt to influence? I don't think that yelling passes that test because you can't know the intent 100%.

I think that when a fencer turns to the referee and does the crouch-fist-pump-scream business, we can assume that he's aiming at an aobjective.

So that's where I'd start.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Originally Posted by Falchion

Its silly to assume that fencers would remain mute and devoid of emotion through the duration of a bout.

Why?

You do realize that some fencers manage it, right? If it happens, it must be possible.

But I would be willing to submit it to an experiment: For one fencing season, any scream or histrionic pantomime earns an immediate red card. Each subsequent transgression earns another. At the end of the season, if there are a significant number of fencers still doing these things "involuntarily", even though it loses them bouts, we repeal the penalty, and I'll never say another word about it.

We both know that most screamers would stop in short order if it was losing them points and bouts...just like sabre fencers stopped crossing forward after that rule went into effect.

Fencing is intense and takes concentration, which in turns means that people at times have to blow off steam.

Why?

And look at the alternative: walking into a NAC with nothing but the sound of fencing lights bleeping on and off. How boring would that be?

Bliss.

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

You have just illustrated the prevailing interpretation. If you think you can hold your own and enforce the rules as you saw fit, as I said you'll have a very short career.

The journey of a thousand miles...

Or maybe someone with the respect of the refereeing community and the FOC should be willing to say that the Emperor has no clothes. It might require sacrifice, to be sure. But is it better to go along to get along?

[Jason]

Inquartata: "Hey you kids! Knock off that racket!"

[Inquartata]

You'd rather I whack them with my cane?

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

You'd rather I whack them with my cane?

Aha! Back to fencing instead of whining!