Do french epees break at tang after only 3 months?

[antonio_arena]

Three months ago I bought a brand new epee with Leon Paul blade (non-FIE) and french grip (leather over plastic). This week the tang broke inside the grip. Just the tang, the plastic grip is still intact.

Is this normal?

Are FIE blades more durable in this regard? (I fenced for many years with FIE blades and pistol grip, but I have very limited experience with french grip epees)

Thanks,
Antonio

[telkanuru]

If you're using a grip that does not have a metal core, it happens quite easily and frequently, even to FIE blades.

Especially if you flick.

[Stormbringer]

Three months ago I bought a brand new epee with Leon Paul blade (non-FIE) and french grip (leather over plastic). This week the tang broke inside the grip. Just the tang, the plastic grip is still intact.

Is this normal?

Are FIE blades more durable in this regard? (I fenced for many years with FIE blades and pistol grip, but I have very limited experience with french grip epees)

In almost four years of fencing (with the French-grip-fitted epee as my prefered/primary weapon), I've never seen the kind of break that you describe. In fact, the closest thing I've ever seen is the opposite - a leather-over-plastic French grip snapping laterally through the midpoint of its length - occurring with an FIE foil (the tang itself was undamaged).

Can you elaborate on the conditions under which this happened? did the break occur during a bout, or was it discovered during maintenance? If this occured during a bout, were you holding it by the pommel, or more toward the guard? Did you look at the tang before this occurred, and did it show any signs of damage (unusual bends, twisting, etc.) then?

[Stormbringer]

If you're using a grip that does not have a metal core, it happens quite easily and frequently, even to FIE blades.

Especially if you flick.

Really?
Why might that be the case?

[antonio_arena]

In almost four years of fencing (with the French-grip-fitted epee as my prefered/primary weapon), I've never seen the kind of break that you describe. In fact, the closest thing I've ever seen is the opposite - a leather-over-plastic French grip snapping laterally through the midpoint of its length - occurring with an FIE foil (the tang itself was undamaged).

Can you elaborate on the conditions under which this happened? did the break occur during a bout, or was it discovered during maintenance? If this occured during a bout, were you holding it by the pommel, or more toward the guard? Did you look at the tang before this occurred, and did it show any signs of damage (unusual bends, twisting, etc.) then?

1) During bout on a parry
2) By the pommel
3) I had not inspected the tang recently

[Stormbringer]

1) During bout on a parry
2) By the pommel
3) I had not inspected the tang recently

Hmmm... that IS very wierd...

It sounds (to me, at least) like you might have just gotten unlucky and ended up with one of the one-in-some-large-number faulty blades that just happens to make it past QC every once in a while.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of parry was being performed? Also, where did the tang break - where it meets the base of the blade? where it transitions from a square cross-section to the threads? where the threads exit the handle/where the handle and pommel meet?

[rdg]

Not knowing any more than what you have said, I would think that you got a bad blade. I am pretty sure that the folks I buy from would take it back and replace it.

Tang breaking in epee is pretty wierd. Blade breaking is different and normal wear and tear, esp., if you get too close, like many beginners do.

Sam

[LordShout]

If there is slack space inside the grip it could cause the blade to have a focal point for leverage in the tang and cause it to snap, the tang not being a place designed to deal with that type of stress. I would check to see if there was a lot of slack space or perhaps a slightly loose pommel that would allow this to happen.

[kuroutesshin]

Knowing Leon Paul's system for affixing french grips, I wouldn't be surprised if the assembly was lose or the threads on the metal nut had worn down. Since it's a non-FIE blade, it's likely you just got a bad blade.

Is the blade canted, and if so did you do it yourself? You may have accidentally put a weak point in the tang if you did it yourself... other than that, everyone seems to have covered the range of issues.

[erik_blank]

Knowing Leon Paul's system for affixing french grips, I wouldn't be surprised if the assembly was lose or the threads on the metal nut had worn down. Since it's a non-FIE blade, it's likely you just got a bad blade.

Is the blade canted, and if so did you do it yourself? You may have accidentally put a weak point in the tang if you did it yourself... other than that, everyone seems to have covered the range of issues.

Hummm.. Let me put in another possibility for the failure: Over tighening of the pommel. If you have one of the old pommels that have a hole through it and then use a screw driver to "make sure" it is tight, it is possible to put enough stress on the tang that it deforms in-elastically, creating microfractures in the metal. The metal will often not fail immediately, but given a strong shock, it will. These micro fractures will often form around screw threads and weld points.

[EpeeAce]

ok, the truth is I broke it-I was sooooo strong that it just snapped.

Seriously, he is not the first in our club to have that happen. Another Vet fencer had it occur using a Leon Paul blade and I have had it happen as well, although I don't remember what kind of blade I was using.

I've always thought it was the torque on the blade, with the tang being loose inside the handle,finding the weak spot. That and I am so much stronger than any tang!

Tim

[piste off]

It is actually pretty common, depending on the brand of blade and how it was prepared (i.e. was it filed down in order to fit the square part of the tang in the handle?).

Russian blades were notorius for this. I assume it is how the tang is fixed to the rest of the blade (meaning the manufacturing process). I have no experience with LP blades, but can tell you that one of the things that I love about LP grips is that you don't have to do the filing down that you have to do on other grips. Ditto for Zivkovic.

R-

[twisterfencing]

antonio,

Poop happens.

If you can afford it, upgrade!


Gary Spruill

Three months ago I bought a brand new epee with Leon Paul blade (non-FIE) and french grip (leather over plastic). This week the tang broke inside the grip. Just the tang, the plastic grip is still intact.

Is this normal?

Are FIE blades more durable in this regard? (I fenced for many years with FIE blades and pistol grip, but I have very limited experience with french grip epees)

Thanks,
Antonio

[Alex_Paul]

Have you still got the tang? If there is black residue in teh fracture then it could be indicative of a faulty tang if teh break appears uniform colour throught then it is probably not a faulty tang. If there is dark stuff then there may have been an inclusion in the handle in which case we will replace the tang for free.

Do you pommel? That is the killer for tangs... there are huge stresses on the point where your thumb sits. What I would suggest is that you put tape around your tang before assembling the weapon so that it is a nice tight fit. You should only need to do the 2 inches or so up by the shoulder.
Changing to a handle with an aluminium core may also help.

[wbowman]

1) During bout on a parry
2) By the pommel
3) I had not inspected the tang recently

Parry? With a pommeled French-grip epee?

[telkanuru]

Parry? With a pommeled French-grip epee?

Um, yes?

Especially in 6.

[mrbiggs]

I've heard from several sources that blades with a French grip often break in the tang.

It's probably also got a lot to do with fencing style, which is why not everyone here is experiencing it.

Follow Alex Paul's advice on looking for a defect (he knows his stuff for sure...), but if there isn't one, then it's probably just stress on the blade caused by fencing.

[larkmaj]

Hummm.. Let me put in another possibility for the failure: Over tighening of the pommel. If you have one of the old pommels that have a hole through it and then use a screw driver to "make sure" it is tight, it is possible to put enough stress on the tang that it deforms in-elastically, creating microfractures in the metal. The metal will often not fail immediately, but given a strong shock, it will. These micro fractures will often form around screw threads and weld points.

This would be my opinion as well. A couple years ago, when I still fenced a french foil, I managed to break 2 epees and 1 foil in a week, all where the threading stops near the shoulder. I had a terrible habit of whenever I felt that the weapon was a little loose I would crank down the pommel. Since realizing that this was incredibly stupid I've been much more careful about how much I tighten my pommel and haven't broken a blade on the tang since. On the couple epees that I have had issues with a loose handle I've put a lock washer between the grip and pommel, it seems to adequatelty tighten everything without over torquing the pommel.

[TBean]

While the timing of your break seems a bit on the short side, how it broke is very common for a epee with a french grip. The last two LP blades I have broken have gone that way, although they were a good-bit older than your blade and I just put it down to being their time.

[wbowman]

Um, yes?

Especially in 6.

Well, okay ... 6 I guess. But a properly-done epee 6 should be more like a take than a beat. Hardly seems like it should break a tang.
(to be honest, my own parries tend to be a bit more foil-ish. But I've fenced a lot of foil and I use a pistol grip. Just seems like it would be hard to parry with enough force to break something with a French. Unless some of the other factors that have been suggested are involved.)