Epee Ref Question

[jjefferies]

A bit of confusion in a Vets epee tournament this afternoon. In a DE, I'm fencing a leftie. I attack with a lunge to his body, touch is made and possibly a double but in my coming back to engarde we lock bell guards and he is pulled forward and goes tumbling full length onto the strip. Some where in all this his blade breaks. Whether on me or the strip neither I nor anyone else is able to say. Lights register a double hit.

Question: Do the touches stand? And if not why not?

It happened and as I was in the middle of it I may not have the sequence down perfectly. But assuming both hits were legitimate and I personally can't say. But what would be the call?

This is the second blade that's been broken on me this week. The last one gave me a nasty gash on my left hand's index finger. Bugger bled and wept for three days before finally scabbing over. I mention this because my first thought after the above action and seeing my opponent's blade lying there was "where did I get cut this time?"

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

A bit of confusion in a Vets epee tournament this afternoon.

Clearly, the confusion lasted a bit after the tournament and made its way onto the internet.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Clearly, the confusion lasted a bit after the tournament and made its way onto the internet.

It's late and a wrong key stroke put an incomplete post out. Some folks are just too impatient.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

A bit of confusion in a Vets epee tournament this afternoon. In a DE, I'm fencing a leftie. I attack with a lunge to his body, touch is made and possibly a double but in my coming back to engarde we lock bell guards and he is pulled forward and goes tumbling full length onto the strip. Some where in all this his blade breaks. Whether on me or the strip neither I nor anyone else is able to say. Lights register a double hit.

Question: Do the touches stand? And if not why not?

It happened and as I was in the middle of it I may not have the sequence down perfectly. But assuming both hits were legitimate and I personally can't say. But what would be the call?

Sounds like the blade break was after the hits, in which case the touches stand.

It's hard to imagine a scenario in which a double touch occurs after one of the blades breaking (in which case the touches would not stand), but I suppose it's possible.

Originally Posted by jjefferies

It's late and a wrong key stroke put an incomplete post out. Some folks are just too impatient.

Yeah I figured, just couldn't pass up the opportunity.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Question: Do the touches stand? And if not why not?

When refereeing, I try to follow this sequence:

1. Determine the action
2. Award any touches, as determined by the action
3. Apply penalties
4. Annul touches

Originally Posted by jjefferies

A bit of confusion in a Vets epee tournament this afternoon. In a DE, I'm fencing a leftie. I attack with a lunge to his body, touch is made and possibly a double but in my coming back to engarde we lock bell guards and he is pulled forward and goes tumbling full length onto the strip. Some where in all this his blade breaks. Whether on me or the strip neither I nor anyone else is able to say. Lights register a double hit.

So, in this case, the referee would

1) Determine the action. In foil and sabre, this step includes determining right-of-way. In epee, I would include here the sequence of actions. For example, did one of the fencers step off the strip or pass before the start of the scoring action? I would also include doubtful actions. Did both of the fencers hit fair? Or was one of the touches on the floor or some other surface? Was either of the hits doubtful (e.g., non-grounded strip, and I didn't see where it hit on an attempted toe touch)?

In your case, there was a broken blade. It is critical for the referee to know whether the blade was broken before or after the lights were on the box. It's usually pretty clear when a blade breaks before the touch is scored. So, if I didn't see or hear the blade break before you both hit, I think it's reasonable to assume that it happened while your opponent was collapsing in a heap after the touch.

2) Award any touches. Based on the materiality, action, and, in foil and sabre, the right-of-way, I award the touch(es). In epee, that generally means that I'm awarding whatever is on the box unless there was a touch, for example, that clearly hit the floor. In your case, it sounds like there's a double touch.

Generally, I mentally think "double touch" here even if I know that one fencer stepped off strip before starting his scoring action. This is my starting point for possible valid hits. That is, the fencer scored a touch, the touch is material and registered on the machine. I deal with annulling any touches in step 4.

3) Apply penalties, as appropriate. In your case, it doesn't sound like there would have been any penalties awarded.

4) Annul touches, as appropriate.

First, we deal with sequence of actions annulment. For example, if one fencer was passed, and we have a double touch, we need to know when the touches occurred relative to the pass. We may be annulling one or both touches based on that sequence.

Then, we may also have to deal with annulments based on tests requested by the fencers.

In your case, unless there was a possible floor hit or something, the only interesting thing is the broken blade. The only rule that comes into play there is t.68 3(h). The referee must determine whether the broken blade occurred before or after the hits.

As long as the blade break occurred after the touch was registered, there's nothing to annul. So, the double touch that we were going to award in step 2 stands.

[jjefferies]

A very reasoned out sequence. BUT I think the touches were annulled. I'll ask RDG to chime in as he was watching and waiting his turn to get into the round of 4. I personally was totally zoned and was thinking only that oh boy I am still in the game, uninjured, and let me at him again. Afterwards there was some commentary to the effect that for safety reasons when a blade breaks the action is halted and any touches made annulled. Which sounded strange to my ear as I would have allowed them. But then there was the fact that my opponent did fall which could have led to an argument that his touch should be annulled for that reason. It was a full body face plant half off the strip.

Ah, confusion reigns! He is a younger up and coming leftie who's been working hard to beat me and this time he came sooo close. By time I finished that bout I was so exhausted that my next opponent took me. - That's my story and I better stick to it. Even if it means that Abdul's going to be working me even harder than ever. If there's in advantage in having your coach watching it's to make sure the points get counted and no one steals anything.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Afterwards there was some commentary to the effect that for safety reasons when a blade breaks the action is halted

True.

Originally Posted by jjefferies

and any touches made annulled.

Only true if the touches were made after the blade was broken.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

A very reasoned out sequence. BUT I think the touches were annulled...Afterwards there was some commentary to the effect that for safety reasons when a blade breaks the action is halted and any touches made annulled.

A blade break is an immediate and "hard" halt. If you have an action that is already in progress when a blade breaks, and then you hit with that action after the blade breaks, your touch will be annulled. So, unlike most halts, a halt for a broken blade is immediate. No touches registered after the moment the blade breaks are allowed.

But that rule does not affect touches that were already registered before the blade was broken.

Originally Posted by jjefferies

But then there was the fact that my opponent did fall which could have led to an argument that his touch should be annulled for that reason. It was a full body face plant half off the strip.

It sounded like you both made a fair touch, and then you accidentally yanked him off balance when the guards caught. Of course, I didn't see it, but if that's what happened, it probably would not qualify as a "touch while falling."

Originally Posted by jjefferies

Ah, confusion reigns!

As usual! But it's the job of the referee to sort out the confusion, see the actions, and make the call.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by jjefferies

A very reasoned out sequence. BUT I think the touches were annulled. I'll ask RDG to chime in as he was watching and waiting his turn to get into the round of 4. I personally was totally zoned and was thinking only that oh boy I am still in the game, uninjured, and let me at him again.

The touches were annulled. That was actually in your favor since you were in a 10 touch DE trailing by a point at the time.

[rdg]

I am sorry to say I didn't see the touch. I believe I would have remembered something that dramatic.

Sam

[Shi no Tenshi]

I'd say it varies if the touch on you was very doubtful. There's that lovely rule for epee that if there is a doubtful touch and a obviously valid touch with both lights on, then the person who score the valid touch has the choice to either anull both or allow both. But it would be your(being as you scored the obviously valid touch) decision to do so. Of course, that is only if the ref thought that your opponents touch was iffy.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by tbryan

A blade break is an immediate and "hard" halt.

Ok, if you are fleching against me and I don't have a prayer of avoiding a touch against, I can get out of it by grabbing my blade in both hands and breaking it?

[Shi no Tenshi]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Ok, if you are fleching against me and I don't have a prayer of avoiding a touch against, I can get out of it by grabbing my blade in both hands and breaking it?

Honestly, I would like to see that.

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Ok, if you are fleching against me and I don't have a prayer of avoiding a touch against, I can get out of it by grabbing my blade in both hands and breaking it?

If you're fast enough to do that, but not fast enough to parry, then something is horribly wrong.

You'd also get a card for grabbing the electrical equipment. And maybe, and some disturbing order to boot.

[jjefferies]

Originally Posted by rdg

I am sorry to say I didn't see the touch. I believe I would have remembered something that dramatic.
Sam

Hmm, just who were you flirting with? The only time you miss the action is when you're flirting... Hm. I think Allegra had already left.

[rdg]

She is a delightful child, and a real approbation of her mother's child rearing skills. We should all be so lucky.

Sam

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Shi no Tenshi

Honestly, I would like to see that.

You haven't seen me fence.

I just hate to hear absolutes.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Ok, if you are fleching against me and I don't have a prayer of avoiding a touch against, I can get out of it by grabbing my blade in both hands and breaking it?

Yes, you can. That would be a hard halt and therefore there won't be a touch if you break the blade before the touch.

That said, you'll get a yellow card for grasping the equipment, and if I was the referee I'd probably (G3) red card you as that's a clearly dangerous and unsportsmanlike action.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Ok, if you are fleching against me and I don't have a prayer of avoiding a touch against, I can get out of it by grabbing my blade in both hands and breaking it?

well, that would get you out of the touch, but would get you a group three red card for intentional modification of equipment, if not a black for unsportsmanlike conduct or manifest cheating.

Not a very good trade...

-m