Kolombatovich : Rules of Referees

[Inquartata]

"Oh, snap", as the young people say.

Or maybe said, it's probably yesterday's slang by the time I hear it anyway.

[Phrogger]

Our FOC and the USFA need to understand that they must be pragmatic in how they pay their referees.

Forgive me if this is naiive, but, couldn't the officials just strike and refuse to show up at Nationals unless they get paid up? Seems like mistreatment of referees has been around at least since I started fencing (1992) and probably before. I think the USFA would readjust their priorities real fast, and it would be more effective than a lawsuit.

[catwood1]

Forgive me if this is naiive, but, couldn't the officials just strike and refuse to show up at Nationals unless they get paid up? Seems like mistreatment of referees has been around at least since I started fencing (1992) and probably before. I think the USFA would readjust their priorities real fast, and it would be more effective than a lawsuit.

Yes "they" could.

1) Not all refs are the same; if the more experienced refs, who are likely more fed up with the situations, strike, then it will mean more of the younger more inexperianced refs will get hired. Your idea only works if basically EVERYONE strikes, which is unlikely. That said, there is a list of refs who are refusing to work summer nationals, and my guess is that as time progresses, there will be more and more refs that boycott events.

2) I think many refs don't want to do this. Most people who referee aren't just random people that want to ref, they are people who are deeply rooted in the sport. If the entire ref cadre strikes, it would be a big blow against the sport. It would force the USFA to fix the payment problems first, regardless of what the best way to fix the budget is, we would be FORCED to fix ref payment. Most people who ref care more about the sport than they do about the money they are owed for reffing.

[kuroutesshin]

In my George K hypothetical, the PiL is established at the end of the faux lunge, just as the defender is jumping away, thereby clearly being established before the initiation of the attack by the erstwhile defender.

...which inserts a break in tempo for PiL to be set up, gotcha. It seems that call would be iffy- I'd imagine the leap back has to be rather large and the pause noticeable. Or am I mistaken in thinking PiL can't be established when you are in fencing distance?

[edew]

PiL can be established at any distance. It all depends on what the opponent of the PiL does. I could be establishing a PiL and if my opponent takes a swipe at my blade while making a lunge and I derobe to finish my PiL, the point would be mine. I doubt it'll be call PiL. More likely, the ref would just say attempt to find the blade fails, attack by Eric is good touch for Eric. There's no need for me to lunge (in foil or saber) if my opponent is lunging at me and I'm within extension distance.

To make the PiL more poignant, suppose in the above example, the opponent takes a swipe and misses, I finish establishing the PiL and then my opponent -- who is well within lunging distance -- makes a short lunge and we both hit. Now, it would be PiL for me. Mainly because he started his attack after I finished establishing the PiL. Yeah, I had to do it by first derobing around an initial search (just because I can't fathom someone being so close to me and not have already attacked by then, so I have to juice up the scenario with some verisimilitude).

[Phrogger]

Your idea only works if basically EVERYONE strikes, which is unlikely.

Well, yes, they'd have to organize themselves to pull it off.

...my guess is that as time progresses, there will be more and more refs that boycott events.

So if it's inevitable anyway, isn't it better to get it over with? After the Olympics, of course. Individual retribution would be less likely if everyone did it.

2) I think many refs don't want to do this. Most people who referee aren't just random people that want to ref, they are people who are deeply rooted in the sport. If the entire ref cadre strikes, it would be a big blow against the sport. It would force the USFA to fix the payment problems first, regardless of what the best way to fix the budget is, we would be FORCED to fix ref payment. Most people who ref care more about the sport than they do about the money they are owed for reffing.

I'm aware of the personal investment in fencing that many of these folks have. I DO think that ref payments have to be a high priority here, and I feel it's going to hurt the sport in the long run if they continue to stiff people.

I'm sure in addition to the people who can afford to make the trip to the NACs and such there are lots who can't. I know first-hand what it's like to spend big $$$ on a trip and then wait months for reimbursement (say hello to the Government credit card). I could afford it. The Marines who worked for me couldn't and it wasn't fair to ask them to.

I have also seen organizations crumble because of the way they treat their volunteers and employees. I think a strike would do less damage than a lawsuit or even the ill will it's causing. Maybe they could spend less on referee development (recruiting) if they would just keep the refs they already have (retention). New refs would be more willing to jump on board if they know they'll be treated well, too.

That said, I hope the newly elected officers can make this point moot.

Sorry for the drift.

[edew]

Here's a simple method: let those who are there to fence referee when they're done fencing or coaching. Don't be such a prick about it. I'm happy to referee. I'll even do it for free (since it's local for me). Let me finish my coaching duties (which usually ends early because the kids events don't go to midnight). Then I'm free to ref for the rest of the day. Feed me and I'll deal with the rest. Pay a per diem/honorarium and I'm more than happy.

If I'm fencing, I'm happy to ref after I'm done fencing. I finished fencing the Vet Foil by 2PM (for the gold) at Chicago. I'm plenty free to ref for the rest of the day...

It's not as though it doesn't happen. I've seen Mormando go from fencing a Div I event to refereeing the top-32 or 16 of the SAME event. I've seen Peter Burchard coaching at the Denver JOs and then refereeing later that day in Men's Foil.

Am I (or a good number of fencers) so much more incompetent than the above two examples (to name a few) that we can't do such a two-task operation in one day? Not so much that it would affect the outcome of any bout that seriously.

Encourage more fencers to referee after they're done. Obviously, in events they didn't compete in or don't have fencers/teammates competing in. We make do.

We did it for the Sr PCCs at Pasadena this year and it worked out all right. And probably saved some bux here or there.

[KD5MDK]

I think the basic problem with this is it's difficult to plan around it. You often need most referees in the morning (when pools go out on ALL strips frequently) or in the mid-day crunch when events are starting before others have slimmed down. I don't think we're frequently looking hard for referees after 3-4pm. So the fact that you and 10 other people are free then doesn't help as much. Of course, if you were willing to referee from 8-12 and you event started at 1...

The other part of this problem is that the tools for referee management are extremely primitive. It's a whole lot of index cards, shuffling stacks, and mental tracking. There are tons of stories about referees who have been forgotten because their card was put in a pocket, or left on the table and then covered with a sheet of something, etc.

PCCs this year was a little different because you were so desperate for referees than anybody showing up at any time could be used.

We can make more use of fractional referees once we have a tracking system during the day that can properly handle resources over time. Right now I don't think anyone has that perfected, and with the amount of stuff that's currently done just in the head referee's memory, they're trying to minimize complications.

[edew]

Put the names on a damn computer. I don't think computers are so small yet that they can be accidentally stuck in a pocket or misplaced under the folds of the tablecloth.

[KD5MDK]

I think a software solution to the problem will eventually come. The question is when.

[dberke]

I think a software solution to the problem will eventually come. The question is when.

This will sound strange, especially coming from a tech-head such as myself...

I think the index card approach is actually better than a computer tool!

When running our big events like the Battle in Seattle, I use index cards for the refs. It is surprisingly efficient to be able to just slap the cards down on each pool sheet and then move them around until you have the right assignments. Releasing a ref is as easy as giving them the handshake and tossing their card into the "not in use" box/stack.

That's not to say a good software tool can't be created, but after having used the index card method, I was shocked at how easy it was. Of course, that also requires you to have a decent system of organization that prevents cards from getting lost...

Dan

[CadetVet]

I think the basic problem with this is it's difficult to plan around it. You often need most referees in the morning (when pools go out on ALL strips frequently) or in the mid-day crunch when events are starting before others have slimmed down. I don't think we're frequently looking hard for referees after 3-4pm. So the fact that you and 10 other people are free then doesn't help as much. Of course, if you were willing to referee from 8-12 and you event started at 1...

The other part of this problem is that the tools for referee management are extremely primitive. It's a whole lot of index cards, shuffling stacks, and mental tracking. There are tons of stories about referees who have been forgotten because their card was put in a pocket, or left on the table and then covered with a sheet of something, etc.

PCCs this year was a little different because you were so desperate for referees than anybody showing up at any time could be used.

We can make more use of fractional referees once we have a tracking system during the day that can properly handle resources over time. Right now I don't think anyone has that perfected, and with the amount of stuff that's currently done just in the head referee's memory, they're trying to minimize complications.

I tend to agree with Eric. Certainly, allowing fencers/coaches to referee - particularly in pools - will have several benefits.

1. It will increase the number of trained referees - including bringing some fresh blood into the sport.
2. It will reduce costs of refereeing - even if all we do is waive event costs (or give a credit for future events), it will have a positive impact.
3. It will probably improve the refereeing by encouraging good fencers to participate

Will it be tough to manage? Perhaps - particularly when the management is somewhat in the dark ages. Even a basic system - in Excel or Filemaker - could do the job - at least in the interim.

By interpreting the no coaching/no fencing rule strictly, we've lost some good referees (at least good when they worked), as these folks have made the rational economic decision that coaching has more value than refereeing. The deferred payment debacle will cost us a few more, no doubt.

All that being said, we have about three choices that I can see:

1. increase the cost of events dramatically - which will reduce the number of participants.
2. cut the costs of the referee/bout committee cadre - which will reduce the number of people who will work the event.
3. make better utilization of people that are already at the event for other reasons.

The last one seems to be the least expensive - why not try it?

[KD5MDK]

The problem with the index card system is it doesn't display time very well. For example, it allows you to assign referees to pools, but it doesn't make it easy to keep track of who will be staying on to DEs and who is going to a different event. Once you start looking ahead of the present, the cards stop being meaningful and you have to do things in your head (or some other way).

A strong case has been made for auto-assigning referees to pools on this board, done by the tournament software (like Enguarde). I think there's some real promise to that in terms of speeding the turnaround of events. I think if you combine this with an easy, drag and drop referee utilization program (with fields like "eaten lunch") to assign referees to events and so forth, something impressive could come out. But it will be quite a while before that becomes a priority.

[downunder]

the software does exist. The Swedes were using it at their Junior Epee world cup this year.

[nyacfencing]

All I can say to George K's article is... THANK GOD FINALLY!!!!

As an epee and former foil fencer that switched to some light saber for this past season, I was at a complete loss on how sabre was being directed. After it was thoroughly explained to me by some teammates, I was at an ever bigger loss as to how it could completely go against all the very clear rules in the rule book.

I pointed out the contradictions, and all the sabre fencers said "that's just the way it is". I am so happy that George has set things straight. Especially after having repeated calls against me in the attack, remise, counter-attack scenario where my opponents who just stood there motionless continually got the point for the counter-attack.

Thanks George!

[KD5MDK]

the software does exist. The Swedes were using it at their Junior Epee world cup this year.

For automatic assigning? Or for general referee management including breaks, reassignment to future events, whether or not they've had lunch...

[Stormbringer]

All I can say to George K's article is... THANK GOD FINALLY!!!!

As an epee and former foil fencer that switched to some light saber for this past season, I was at a complete loss on how sabre was being directed. After it was thoroughly explained to me by some teammates, I was at an ever bigger loss as to how it could completely go against all the very clear rules in the rule book.

I pointed out the contradictions, and all the sabre fencers said "that's just the way it is". I am so happy that George has set things straight. Especially after having repeated calls against me in the attack, remise, counter-attack scenario where my opponents who just stood there motionless continually got the point for the counter-attack.

Thanks George!

Seconded!

[Slacker]

I read the newsletter this morning. My sympathies to the referees that will be volunteering their time for awhile. I get more tired directing than I do when I fence! All organizations have screw ups at some point and it will take a little time to fix them, even if new powers are voted in.

I was enlightened by the concept that parry does not begin the offensive action. The PIL discussion is what my coach calls tempo. There has to be an offensive action within a short time or the action stops.

As a fencer who chronically misses her target distance by centimeters, only to hit on a remise, I'm kinda wondering, why not continue what I'm doing?

[edew]

Because that'll be two actions, the second being the remise into your opponent's attack (or riposte).

If you "attack" and freeze in a PiL pose, then George K's premise may apply and you might get the PiL if your opponent walks onto it. If you attack and then attack again while your opponent steps towards you with his attacking motion, then his point will count.

Of course, one-lighters pretty much fix the problem, so if your coach tells you to remise, that's not necessarily a bad learning experience.

[downunder]

For automatic assigning? Or for general referee management including breaks, reassignment to future events, whether or not they've had lunch...

Manual allocation, run separately to engarde. can handle multiple events and log which referee has refereed what, to which level, qualifications of referees, time since last refereed etc etc.

I can't remember the last time I had a lunch break that wasn't scoffing a sandwich between the L64 and the L32 .