Fleching from lunge

[crquack]

I was re-reading some old posts and came across "fleche from lunge" mentioned several times as an advanced technique, not to be attempted at my stage.

Of course the moment someone tells me not to do something I begin to wonder what I am missing

Seriously though: Is this an advanced technique because of the technical difficulty, because of necessary conditioning which may be lacking at the beginner stage or is this one of those high risk-high reward type of moves?

Or is it like flicking - you can injure the opponent if done improperly?

I am not saying I shall rush to practice it in secret but I am kind of interested in the issues involved. Does Mr. Evans have video clips of this technique to look at?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by crquack

I was re-reading some old posts and came across "fleche from lunge" mentioned several times as an advanced technique, not to be attempted at my stage.

Of course the moment someone tells me not to do something I begin to wonder what I am missing

Seriously though: Is this an advanced technique because of the technical difficulty, because of necessary conditioning which may be lacking at the beginner stage or is this one of those high risk-high reward type of moves?

Or is it like flicking - you can injure the opponent if done improperly?

I am not saying I shall rush to practice it in secret but I am kind of interested in the issues involved. Does Mr. Evans have video clips of this technique to look at?

i'd say that you could maybe injure your knee if you do it in an uncontrolled way or with bad technique.

[TBean]

Originally Posted by noodle

i'd say that you could maybe injure your knee if you do it in an uncontrolled way or with bad technique.

Agreed.

It is also a conditioning issue. You need to have the necessary strength in your legs and core to do the action smoothly and in control. If you cannot start the fleche smoothly from the lunge you will telegraph what you are doing because you are going to hoist yourself up before you move forward.

Ask an advanced fencer at your club if they can do it. Then you'll see what it looks like.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Personally, I lunge to get to the flesh.

[headcut]

Originally Posted by crquack

I was re-reading some old posts and came across "fleche from lunge" mentioned several times as an advanced technique, not to be attempted at my stage.

Of course the moment someone tells me not to do something I begin to wonder what I am missing

Seriously though: Is this an advanced technique because of the technical difficulty, because of necessary conditioning which may be lacking at the beginner stage or is this one of those high risk-high reward type of moves?

If you're fleching from a lunge, you should have good strength in your legs, good distance control and good timing. I'm assuming that you already have a good lunge and fleche separately.

There's a few things to consider when doing a fleche from a lunge... the most important one is distance. If I'm lunging and the distance opens up between my opponent to a distance that is fleche distance, then that may be the time to do one. Sounds simple but timing is very important here because you have obviously lunged and did not get the touch. Your opponent may be looking for you to make an attack after retreating to such a distance, baiting you in. I normally consider fleche distance as between a lunge and advance & lunge distance, sort of a lunge plus 1/2 an advance.

To do an effective lunge/fleche combo, you need to launch into the fleche right away (timely) as distance dictates. This means fleche-ing off your front leg. Use the momentum of the lunge to fleche, but don't make a sloppy lunge to get to the fleche. If you don't have the strength to do this, your fleche will not be as dynamic as you need it to be. Most of the time this combo has been successful is when the opponent is retreating quickly out of distance and is out of control (bailing out) then after your lunge, Wham! you fleche to close the distance and get the touch. Normally this combo is not a pre-planned attack. It is the result of no touch on your lunge attack and the opponent retreats setting up the scenario to allow you to fleche. Hope this helps.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by crquack

Of course the moment someone tells me not to do something I begin to wonder what I am missing

In this case, leg muscles.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by crquack

I was re-reading some old posts and came across "fleche from lunge" mentioned several times as an advanced technique, not to be attempted at my stage.

Of course the moment someone tells me not to do something I begin to wonder what I am missing

Just to add to what's been said already...

I don't remember where you are, personally, but you should remember that there's a loose progression in fencing skills.

For example, while it may be useful to make a circular 6 parry, transfer (bind) the blade to 7, and hit thigh or flank, that's not an action you'd work on when first learning to fence. Unless you have a good circle 6 and can score with a circle 6 parry-riposte to arm/chest, then adding the bind isn't going to get you more touches all of a sudden. If you have a circle 6 parry that's too wide, or if you make the parry at the wrong distance, you should work on the technique and tactics of a good circle 6 parry-riposte first. Adding the bind isn't going to help you if the distance is wrong or the circle 6 sucks. You'll also probably have more opportunities in bouts (especially against a certain level of opponent) to hit the circle 6 riposte to arm/chest than you will to hit a circle 6 bind to 7, hit thigh.

So, if you cannot hit your opponent with a fleche from a simple preparation, such as a small hop forward or a simple retreat, then trying to hit with a fleche from a lunge is unlikely to help you. You may have technical flaws in your fleche that won't magically go away just because you're starting from a lunge. You're also likely to have more opportunities to score using a hop forward and fleche than you are to hit with a lunge-fleche. Working on the former would probably have a better return for time invested.

[Gav]

It's such a rare move to perform that I wonder why you want to bother.

Learn to fence well, using the basics, now and not only will you be a better fencer but you will enjoy yourself more.

[piste off]

Originally Posted by Gav

It's such a rare move to perform that I wonder why you want to bother.

Learn to fence well, using the basics, now and not only will you be a better fencer but you will enjoy yourself more.

Have to hugely agree here.

I can't think of any major fencer, at least in epee, that uses this action very often if at all. The best flechers that I know don't, unless they royally screwed up the lunge.

Rick

[tchwojko]

One perfectly executed lunge at the right time and distance will score on pretty much anyone. One sloppy lunge-fleche won't hit anyone.

Perfecting few simple actions will get you much further than a wide breadth of imperfect combinations.

[DangerMouse]

There are a lot of good fencers that use it often, but only when they've been had on a distance setup and are strung out in the lunge with no option but to keep going and remise on a fleche. You see this from a lot of the top French fencers. Most of the time it doesn't turn into a full fleche, but looks more like a lunge + momentum, but that's really no different from lunge - fleche.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by piste off

The best flechers that I know don't

The best flechers don't lunge very often... :)

-B

[headcut]

Originally Posted by Gav

Learn to fence well, using the basics, now and not only will you be a better fencer but you will enjoy yourself more.

Very well said. Very true. The best fencers I have come across always had the basic fundamentals down.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by piste off

Have to hugely agree here.

I can't think of any major fencer, at least in epee, that uses this action very often if at all. The best flechers that I know don't, unless they royally screwed up the lunge.

Rick

Ben Bratton?

Dwight Smith?

Maybe you have no idea what you are talking about.

[seven6ty]

Ben and Dwight both have great fleches, but I can't recall seeing either of them do a lunge into a fleche before. (At least not from a full lunge.) :-/

Soren, before his hamstring injury, sure though.

[mrbiggs]

I used to do it sometimes when fencing epee. It can catch D and under fencers off guard pretty easily. I don't know how the better fencers use it.

It's hardly an "advanced" technique; approach it like you would with any other footwork. First, learn it correctly from a coach. Then, practice it until you can do it well. Then, use it in controlled bouting situations such as individual lessons, practice bouts or bouts where you have a significant advantage in skill. And finally, work it into your repetoire.

[Timberwolf_CY]

I did my first fleche today, out of a recovery forward from a lunge. It was so fluid, and I was relying on muscle memory and reflexes so much that I scarcely remember the specifics of doing it. It just happened so fast and was so spontaneous, and so well executed, I have no idea how I even pulled it off. But that's been happening a lot with my fencing lately, things will just "dawn" on me and than I do it. My fencing has been improving tremendously in the last five weeks or so; I am simply not the same fencer I used to be. I think that if I competed in an open tournament here in St. Louis or KC, I'd actually have a chance of renewing my E...that I earned in late 2006. I still need more practice however to fine-tune my bladework, but my circular parry-6s are becoming very well executed, and I fooled two seperate fencers tonight with one-twos and single disengages for the first time in well...years. My footwork and lunges are becoming much tighter and spontaneous, but much, much more powerful, thanks to the workouts one of the, I guess, sub-coaches has been putting us through, I have benefitted greatly from them.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, when you're ready for it, take the lesson, and basically do as Mr. Biggs and Gav has said...baby steps, and only move on once those are adequetely learned and executed...I would say master, but I can't think of anyone who has ever truly mastered anything in fencing...in the literal sense.

[Pescados666]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf_CY

I did my first fleche today, out of a recovery forward from a lunge. It was so fluid, and I was relying on muscle memory and reflexes so much that I scarcely remember the specifics of doing it. It just happened so fast and was so spontaneous, and so well executed, I have no idea how I even pulled it off. But that's been happening a lot with my fencing lately, things will just "dawn" on me and than I do it. My fencing has been improving tremendously in the last five weeks or so; I am simply not the same fencer I used to be. I think that if I competed in an open tournament here in St. Louis or KC, I'd actually have a chance of renewing my E...that I earned in late 2006. I still need more practice however to fine-tune my bladework, but my circular parry-6s are becoming very well executed, and I fooled two seperate fencers tonight with one-twos and single disengages for the first time in well...years. My footwork and lunges are becoming much tighter and spontaneous, but much, much more powerful, thanks to the workouts one of the, I guess, sub-coaches has been putting us through, I have benefitted greatly from them.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, when you're ready for it, take the lesson, and basically do as Mr. Biggs and Gav has said...baby steps, and only move on once those are adequetely learned and executed...I would say master, but I can't think of anyone who has ever truly mastered anything in fencing...in the literal sense.

It's the new pistol grips you got :P

[Timberwolf_CY]

Originally Posted by Pescados666

It's the new pistol grips you got :P

lol, no, it's not that.

We have this guy there named Chris, and we do group drills/exercises before we actually start fencing. The first time I did it we worked out for about a half an hour, which I was PUMPED about because I had never done anything so...well...athletic before, and it felt good to do something like that. Than some people complained and he's cut the workout in half. It is still effective though. Anyway, the strenuous workouts and drills have allowed my footwork, lunges, attacks, etc., to be much more fluid and fast. I still need to get the jump rope thing down, but that will come with practice. My basic technique and theory has remained the same, it's just that a lot of the ideas and theories I had needed practice and refinement. For instance, I only found out about a year, year and a half ago that you're supposed to use the back leg for propulsion during a lunge, to give speed and power. Now while I realized that then, I have ONLY just now started actually doing it, because the workouts have given me an opportunity to really try what I've been wanting to do, but never had the guidance. I mean, it's an epiphany of sorts for me, I would call it my personal "renaissance" of fencing for me. I have been getting points lately that I could only dream of 5 or 6 months ago. And it was not changing to the pistol grip that did it; it was the change in coaching and environment; I am with a much more serious group of fencers now, and that has really rubbed off on me because now I'm experiencing what it's like to fence real competitors ALL the time, and learn from them, even if it's just copying what they do, it's the execution that counts, and that is what I am getting down.