Women's Saber Tianjin, China

[Inquartata]

Well, he IS in the film business. I suspect he's reviewing video.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Give that man the golden cigar. While every single point is indelibly inscribed into my consciousness, I do refer to the videotape from time to time.

You know...just to check point counts, and all...

[Mo]

After Tianjing the FIE Ratings now look like this:Rank Pts Name Nationality Date of birth Season
1 342 WARD Rebecca USA 07.02.90 2007/2008
2 326 TAN Xue CHN 30.01.84 2007/2008
3 318 JACOBSON Sada USA 14.02.83 2007/2008
4 258 NETCHAEVA Elena RUS 14.06.79 2007/2008
5 256 ZAGUNIS Mariel USA 03.03.85 2007/2008

Interesting yes?? There is still Las Vegas and Zonals that will count. The OMG 66 days until the O's Start.
The Momster

[KD5MDK]

I had somewhere or other picked up the impression Xue was #1 on points. Is this a change?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I had somewhere or other picked up the impression Xue was #1 on points. Is this a change?

She had been #1. She's now dropped down to 2.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

France is no longer in the first place for teams. The rankings here have changed too.

Rang Pts Nom Nationalité Saison
1 376 U.S.A.
2 352 FRANCE
3 316 RUSSIE
4 286 CHINE
5 284 UKRAINE
6 248 COREE
7 234 ITALIE
8 230 POLOGNE
9 199 CANADA

[Capt. Slo-mo]

A couple of other observations from Tianjin:

China is developing a good team. Before, it seemed to always be Tan Xue and an interchangeable battery of 12-13 foot tall fencers of moderate skill...many of them named Zhao. Tan was tough, but most of the other top teams could usually make up points on her basketballer-sized teammates. Bao is now showing signs of being a solid back up. During the final bout with Russia, Bao and Xue put the Chinese team up by at least 5-6 points through the first two rounds, only to see Ni (the 3rd member) have a horrendous 5-11 bout. The Russians looked to be in firm command, but the Chinese kept fighting, and Ni got hot late to bring it back to -3 for the Chinese going into the final bout.

Netchaeva got to 44, but couldn't close the deal, and Tan came from behind to steal the win. If the current point standings hold, there could be a US/China showdown in Beijing in the round of four.

Other observation: the referees seem to be going out of their way to watch for a "premier attack: no. Attack (from other side) arrives" call. Even the slightest footwork hesitation or minute arm extension during the advance-lunge can trigger the call. It's encouraging two things: oddly regular, cadenced advances (much like foil marches in the old days), and a flurry of Hail Mary counterattacks from retreating defenders, hoping that the ref saw a minor hitch in their opponent's attack.

Each ref seems to have his own tolerance for what constitutes a failed attack..and with the tighter timings, it only encourages defenders to try actions that in the past would have been almost universally called against them.

I'm not sure this is a big improvement so far, but it does seem to be changing the game.

[edew]

Just wait until the refs decide to change their interpretations in August.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

That's what I'm afraid of...another sea change just before the Olympics.

Certain refs have always called the "premiere attack: no" from time to time, but it usually had to be pretty egregious. I saw more of these calls in a single event in China than I've seen all season long.

The WS fencers are certainly talking about and training for it...so I hope the FIE doesn't reverse course again just before Beijing.

[edew]

I'm sure I don't need to tell da girls that they need to fence for the referees, but...fence for the referees. Your first three points (for either fencer) should be enough to get the gist for how the referee will call things.

The thing is, FIE Olympic-level referees would at least be consistent, so once you get the gist, you can go all the way with that knowledge.

[lanier]

Really great description Capt.; thanks.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Other observation: the referees seem to be going out of their way to watch for a "premier attack: no. Attack (from other side) arrives" call. Even the slightest footwork hesitation or minute arm extension during the advance-lunge can trigger the call.

Gods, I hope you meant "arm withdrawal" or "minute cessation of arm extension"...

[It's encouraging two things: oddly regular, cadenced advances (much like foil marches in the old days), and a flurry of Hail Mary counterattacks from retreating defenders, hoping that the ref saw a minor hitch in their opponent's attack.

Each ref seems to have his own tolerance for what constitutes a failed attack..and with the tighter timings, it only encourages defenders to try actions that in the past would have been almost universally called against them.

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."


( A brief detour from Latin. )

[bigdawg2121]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Gods, I hope you meant "arm withdrawal" or "minute cessation of arm extension"...





"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."


( A brief detour from Latin. )

No, he almost certainly meant "arm extension" as in any sort of notable extension that doesn't result in contact = failed attack. The withdrawal or cessation of extension would either be "attaque non-correcte" or a preparation.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

The way it's being described to the ladies:

If you even twitch or begin an extension that does not immediately result in a full attack, you run a huge risk of getting the "attack short" call; not a "during-the-feint-in-the-middle-of-your-compound-attack/successful attack in prep for your opponent" call.

It's a very distinct difference...and a curious one at that.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

That's what I'm afraid of...another sea change just before the Olympics.

Certain refs have always called the "premiere attack: no" from time to time, but it usually had to be pretty egregious. I saw more of these calls in a single event in China than I've seen all season long.

The WS fencers are certainly talking about and training for it...so I hope the FIE doesn't reverse course again just before Beijing.

I have no understanding of French at all. What does "premiere attack" mean? Is it the same as "initial attack"?

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I have no understanding of French at all. What does "premiere attack" mean? Is it the same as "initial attack"?

Yes. [more characters]

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

If you even twitch or begin an extension that does not immediately result in a full attack, you run a huge risk of getting the "attack short" call; not a "during-the-feint-in-the-middle-of-your-compound-attack/successful attack in prep for your opponent" call.

It's a very distinct difference...and a curious one at that.

Why so? That's as it should be, IMO. The attack begins with extension, and if the extension doesn't continue without break it stops. Attack, no.

This business of having the attack granted to the guy going forward regardless of what his arm is doing even if the opponent extends and even hits first has always puzzled me, being the exact opposite of what the rules explicitly require. Maybe someone finally noticed?

Hurrah.

[darius]

This business of having the attack granted to the guy going forward regardless of what his arm is doing even if the opponent extends and even hits first has always puzzled me, being the exact opposite of what the rules explicitly require. Maybe someone finally noticed?

The reports I heard from Cdt/Jr Worlds were that there exists no such thing as a feint-attack in sabre -- even if the response to a feint was to attempt a parry, the feint would be called as a failed attack.

darius

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Yep. Maybe it's in error, but that's the way the calls seem to be clustering.

The calls also have two components: the arms and the feet. If either the arm twitches or the feet stutter beyond the comfort level of the ref, it can draw the "premiere attack no."

Here's where there seems to be a situational difference in what the purists might otherwise consider all well and good: before, for a defender to get a similar call, it had to be an attack in prep, where the attack was carrying an arm without extension, or executing a compound action while the defender correctly and clearly stole time before the final action...or, an attacker had to clearly come to a halt or attack and fall short with the swipe of the blade.

Now, though the attack may be feinting and drawing reaction, or even just coming forward and stuttering with the advance to try to disrupt the timing of the AIP, even if the attacker finishes directly and extends before the extension of the defender...the preponderance of the calls seems to be going in favor of the defender's counter attack. The "premiere attack no" call seems to bypass the final extension of the attacker and give a wide latitude to the defender's response.

It's just an observation, plus anecdotal stories from the fencers...but they're nearly all talking about it.

[Soberin]

Seems to me that all this stuff at the last minute is obviously meant to make the Olympics more "TV friendly." I suspect there will be some changes in foil timing and epee target areas as well in the next few weeks. If it makes fencing more watchable for the general public, all the better.