2008 Summer Nationals

[tbryan]

The referees' calls we had were somewhat questionable.

I'm not sure if this is a statement about the referees or your perception of them. An individual call can't really be somewhat questionable. Either it was the right call or the wrong call.

Did the referees simply make their calls without the confidence and demeanor of an experienced referee?

Did the referees make calls in "tight" exchanges, and since you don't know the referee, you're more inclined to doubt that the call was right?

Did the referees make actual incorrect calls? On rules or on right-of-way?

Or did the referees fail to make calls in situations where they should have?

Or did the referees seem inconsistent in how they called right-of-way?

Or were the referees failing to award penalty cards? Or were they overzealous in awarding penalties?

I'm not just picking on you. I'm really curious about what you meant by "somewhat questionable." And this is the sort of distinction that you need to make to have a useful discussion with the referee later in the day, provide useful feedback to the bout committee about your referees, provide useful information to your coach about a referee, etc.

[bob46]

I predict at least one coach will have a meltdown in a Youth event over a call that only he or she sees.

AE

That actually happened in the Cadet Womens Foil yesterday; the EUF coach got black carded for throwing and kicking the bars!!! Hope he got an early ticket back!

[epeemike81]

That actually happened in the Cadet Womens Foil yesterday; the EUF coach got black carded for throwing and kicking the bars!!! Hope he got an early ticket back!

which coach?

-m

[leftyboy]

which coach?

-m

I thought we didn't share names on here, just general descriptions. . .

[epeemike81]

I thought we didn't share names on here, just general descriptions. . .

when it's a factual case of "X Coach got blackcarded" then I'd say it should be a matter of public record.

for that matter, I think a case of "X Referee issued a blackcard" then it should be a matter of public record.

-m

[bob46]

which coach?

-m

I'm not too sure, I just saw the EUF jacket and the black card come up; it was near a Boys Y14 bout; everyone was watching because the score was pretty much 14-14. Everyone heard a racket going on, then the black card. In my 3 years of competitive fencing, I never saw anything quite like this...

[Guymelef]

when it's a factual case of "X Coach got blackcarded" then I'd say it should be a matter of public record.

for that matter, I think a case of "X Referee issued a blackcard" then it should be a matter of public record.

-m

You say that, but have you been on the receiving end of 'public record' and been bandied about and second guessed on this forum?

The black card at national events is only a motion, it has to be ratified by the head referee. Understanding that check-balance system is often lost in these discussions and onus is placed solely and unfairly on the referee. Justice was served; no reason to try both parties again.

[epeemike81]

You say that, but have you been on the receiving end of 'public record' and been bandied about and second guessed on this forum?

The black card at national events is only a motion, it has to be ratified by the head referee. Understanding that check-balance system is often lost in these discussions and onus is placed solely and unfairly on the referee. Justice was served; no reason to try both parties again.

I have not, in fact. That said, were I to throw a black card I would be glad to answer any such criticism in a public forum and would not consider it to be somehow privileged information that I threw it.

I don't throw cards lightly, and if I throw them I stand by them.

-m

[jjefferies]

As long as you're providing the gossip. What were they for? Is there a scale for black cards?

Take a look at t.118 & t.119 and the footnotes to the penalty chart.

Aw Come on! And I've been accused of not having a sense of humor!

[dberke]

Saw some new referees since the "regulars" weren't there. Were they unofficially on strike? The referees' calls we had were somewhat questionable. Any comments on your experiences?

There were plenty of "regulars" there. I'm sure there were some who didn't attend for various reasons, but that's always the case.

As tbryan asked, in what way were the refs calls "questionable"? There always is a mix of new and experienced refs, and if your fencer happened to draw more of the newer refs, that's the luck of the draw.

Dan

[Mr Epee]

I will be there, because I can. I, like almost all the other referees, go because of the athletes and their needs. I also realize that there are some of us who really would want to be there but can't because of the $. I have not missed a NAC in many years and think I know most of the old hands and the newer ones. I hope that the athletes, parents, and coaches all realize why we come and take the physical, mental and emotional abuse. We mostly all care about the athletes and our sport. I believe if any have to decide to not come, it will be because they CAN"T, not because they are mad at the USFA. So please, every one, don't place any assumptions on why someone is not able to attend. I am always concerned that some may want to make this a political issue and that the referees will get lost in the personal rhetoric. We all want to be there if we can. I stand by each referees' decision and hope others will also, not because of some political stance but because we all need to stand up for this dedicated group!

Jerry Benson

This sounds familiar...

An enabler in most definitions is a person who through his or her actions allows someone else to achieve something. Most often the term enabler is associated with people who allow loved ones to behave in ways that are destructive. For example, an enabler wife of an alcoholic might continue to provide the husband with alcohol. A person might be an enabler of a gambler or compulsive spender by lending them money to get out of debt.


In this fashion, though the enabler may be acting out of love and trying to help or protect a person, he or she is actually making a chronic problem like an addiction worse. By continuing to lend money to the gambler, for example, the gambler doesn’t have to face the consequences of his actions. Someone is there to bail him out of trouble and continue to enable his behavior.


The term enabler is also part of the larger definition of codependency. Codependency at first arose as a definition of adaptive behaviors a person might make if he or she lives with someone with substance abuse or severe emotional problems. A codependent tends to remain so, because he or she adapts to or ignores the behaviors of the ill person. In fact, the codependent often becomes an enabler because it allows one to be involved in fewer conflicts.

Yep. Perfectly normal. Totally healthy.

Good times.

[Redblade]

when it's a factual case of "X Coach got blackcarded" then I'd say it should be a matter of public record.

for that matter, I think a case of "X Referee issued a blackcard" then it should be a matter of public record.

You say that, but have you been on the receiving end of 'public record' and been bandied about and second guessed on this forum?

The black card at national events is only a motion, it has to be ratified by the head referee. Understanding that check-balance system is often lost in these discussions and onus is placed solely and unfairly on the referee. Justice was served; no reason to try both parties again.

Unless the card was secretly passed between the ref and the offender and not discussed with or observed by a third party, there's no way to avoid these kinds of discussions. The aforementioned black card offense is a major infraction at a public venue during a major sporting event; it's a few steps above baseless gossip or regional bickering.

[sionnach]

...Klose outpaced Sergio Ramos but his rasping 20 yard shot was tipped over the bar by keeper Iker Cassillas. Moments later a player who shall remain nameless was sent off for an incident we won't really discuss by the referee whom we won't name. All you need know is that justice was served, don't worry about it. Michael Ballack's free kick attempt was...

How is this example made any less ridiculous by changing it from football to fencing?

[HDG]

Aw Come on! And I've been accused of not having a sense of humor!

Sorry, I just saw a question and answered it; I honestly didn't give any thought to who had posed it or whether it was serious.

[ToucheVerte]

Senior Foil Team Championship Final - FAW vs. Massialas. Meinhardt 40 - Getz 44. 26 Seconds to go. Meinhardt forces Getz off back of the strip 41-44. 8 seconds to go, Meinhardt scores 42-44. Six seconds, Meinhardt scores again 43-44. Three seconds - Meinhardt charges down the strip, Getz falls flat on his back, but appears to parry-riposte as he is starting to fall. Benson says no way - 44-44. Meinhardt wins ten seconds into overtime.

[SenorEquis]

Senior Foil Team Championship Final - FAW vs. Massialas. Meinhardt 40 - Getz 44. 26 Seconds to go. Meinhardt forces Getz off back of the strip 41-44. 8 seconds to go, Meinhardt scores 42-44. Six seconds, Meinhardt scores again 43-44. Three seconds - Meinhardt charges down the strip, Getz falls flat on his back, but appears to parry-riposte as he is starting to fall. Benson says no way - 44-44. Meinhardt wins ten seconds into overtime.

Wow. Anyone have video they'd like to upload to YouTube?

[destinylegendz]

Saw some new referees since the "regulars" weren't there. Were they unofficially on strike? The referees' calls we had were somewhat questionable. Any comments on your experiences?

I was actually watching a bout that was beyond “questionably bad”. It was in the Y14MF DE bout; I believe that it was the 7 or 8 seed against a 57 seed. Once I heard a few uproars, I turned my attention to the bout. Apparently, both sides were very anxious and at one point, the bar fell and both sides of the fencer’s each went their “AWWs” and “Boos” in a very hilarious manner.
At 8-4, the fencer on the left ( I think it was Ching or Chan or something against someone in Lucchetti) scored a one light touch with a counter attack and the director said
-dramatic silence-
I don’t know
And both sides are shaking their heads. Seriously. Both sides are even saying “Sir its one light.” The fencer on the left took off his mask and made a face that screamed: “What the {censored}?!” Then the director finally gave the fencer the touch.
After that, (From now, I shall refer the person on the left as “C”) C kept yelling “One light!!!!!!” After every touch, because all his touches were one light, and most of us just laughed.
The final score was 15-5 and all coaches were screaming, some dropped the pole , and some held their heads as a sign of “WHAT THE {insert bad word}”
Either way, the point I’m trying to prove in this description of the event is that the directors aren’t good at this year’s summer nationals.
“Beyond bad” is not a very appropriate term for this event, but the way of directing in this bout is the definition of “unbelievable hilarious”

[KD5MDK]

You think things were substantially better last year?

[teacup]

You think things were substantially better last year?

I realize you are referring to reffing but the set up of the strips for the final events, in my opinion, was really an improvement for both fencers and spectators from last year.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

I was actually watching a bout that was beyond “questionably bad”.

I saw foil on that level, and about 6-7 Saber touches; but not Epee.

My favourite Saber one was - the fencer crosses over - 2 lights go on, the ref warns the "crossover kid", does not give a yellow, and awards him the touch.
THis is repeated over 3 touches during the bout.
The coach of the "sufferer" goes a touch ballistic after the 2nd crossover, tries to stop the bout, the ref ignores it and proceeds to drag "the crossover kid" to the winning finish.