2008 Summer Nationals

[Montoya]

Corwin Duncan
James Kaull
Sean Leahy
Roshan Singh

[Inquartata]

Not that I am the sort of ref you are talking about, Mark, but I have asked a coach for his analysis of my refereeing.

Of course, the coach in question is also a national referee. But he was only coaching on that particular day.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

Are not a lot of coaches refs, and refs coaches?
Tass, Hristov & Hristov, Costin, Glon, Oiyut, D'Asaro Jr., Stetsiv, Kizik, Klinkova, Edew in Saber alone come to mind.

[bigdawg2121]

A few things:

1) The call was IIRC (as I was ridiculously close to Jerry at the time it was made) attack arrives. No one argued that Meinhardt retook the attack but rather that Kurt parried and riposted.

2) It's really not cool for people to say things about "unfair" calls being made. You may not like refs or believe we love the sport as much as you do but frankly it's uncool to accuse us of cheating without damn good reason (better than your kid losing or having a bout blown). I don't think a ref has ever walked into your household and accused you of being unfit for motherhood or not loving your child b/c you made a mistake. Mistakes are made. Some refs, like some parents, make many mistakes or make the same few consistently but rarely is it attributable to unfairness.

3) If you you sign a sheet without checking it sucks but you can't blame to BC for not redoing things. I know there were several people that signed reversed sheets and they (the fencers)bear a large portion of the blame as well. It's no more unfair to not reseed them than it is to grind the event to a halt for everyone else. Also speculating about DE outcomes with a different opponent is a questionable practice.

4) Lastly, since SNs are so important and we all want/need only the good refs to ref our children what do you suggest? How else to develop refs or get high level refs in etc?

[DJ Apostrophe]

Check out the thread with complete team coverage.

Prise de Fer has everything, team sheets, de's, etc.

http://www.prisedefer.com/

Just as a heads up, Dave wanted me to let people know that as mistakes are being pointed out on this thread (incorrect links, wrong substitution made in engarde, etc) he has been fixing the problems and reposting the information...

Thanks,

Wayne

[KD5MDK]

Well, we could just not allow your children in so the numbers are small enough that using only the best referees provides full coverage...

[oiuyt]

I don't believe I've ever heard an interpretation which contradicts the rules.

t.82, third paragraph:

During bouts (between the command “Fence” and “Halt,”) no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give advice to the fencers.

Clearly we allow coaches (and other spectators) to give advice during the fencing ("meter", "push", "back, back, back"), so long as it doesn't disturb order on the strip. And we have allowed this practice for about a dozen years now.

-B

[ysbadadden]

t.82, third paragraph:



Clearly we allow coaches (and other spectators) to give advice during the fencing ("meter", "push", "back, back, back"), so long as it doesn't disturb order on the strip. And we have allowed this practice for about a dozen years now.

-B

Not to mention allowing criticism of the referees or attempts to influence them.

[fencerina dad]

The prisdefer site is great for team events but does anyone know of a site posting complete results of all of the individual events including DE Tableau's ?

The USFA site results are too limited in detail.

Thanks

[bbower]

The prisdefer site is great for team events but does anyone know of a site posting complete results of all of the individual events including DE Tableau's ?

The USFA site results are too limited in detail.

Thanks

You aren't going to find this.
Team events were run in enguarde, which allows for the reporting of this information.
Individual events were run in XSeed, which allows for nothing.

[jellybean]

Yes, the complete individual results -

Initial Seeding
Pools
Pool Results
DE's
and Referee Report

are compiled and turned into pdf files and posted within a week of the ending of the competition.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

3) If you you sign a sheet without checking it sucks but you can't blame to BC for not redoing things. I know there were several people that signed reversed sheets and they (the fencers)bear a large portion of the blame as well. It's no more unfair to not reseed them than it is to grind the event to a halt for everyone else. Also speculating about DE outcomes with a different opponent is a questionable practice.

There are oranges, there are apples, and there are huevos rancheros.

Yes
if DE seeding is done - I get it
if it is an experienced fencer - I get it, but will sympathize with the fencer
if it is a South Chihuahua Divisional Monthly open - I get it, but really do not care
if it is Nationals, a kid Y14 or Y12 fencer - thus perhaps first "big" competition, and DE seeding is not done, and "the official figure" at a "Big and Important table" tells you "tough noogies", because of something that happened in Rhineland-Palatinate - I neither get it, nor sympathize with officials.
Again bouts are won on the strips, lessons can be learned through someone else's mistakes, and all of us were kids at one time or another as far as I can remember.

[HDG]

if it is Nationals, a kid Y14 or Y12 fencer - thus perhaps first "big" competition, and DE seeding is not done, and "the official figure" at a "Big and Important table" tells you "tough noogies", because of something that happened in Rhineland-Palatinate - I neither get it, nor sympathize with officials

If it's Nationals, everyone there has seen a pool sheet and a DE slip at least once before; that is no one's 1st tournament -- even if it might be their 1st "big" one.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

If it's Nationals, everyone there has seen a pool sheet and a DE slip at least once before; that is no one's 1st tournament -- even if it might be their 1st "big" one.

Thanks for pointing out the fact that a Y12 kid had to fence in a tournament prior to Nats; I have learned a lot.
It is obvious the kid made a mistake, I never questioned that fact; my $1.25 is that someone at the scorer's table stated that he could have reversed the sheet prior to DE seeding, but CHOSE not to do so.
Also do you remember yourself 12 and going to a movie vs. your first MLB game, a level of adrenaline is a touch different

[tchwojko]

Thanks for pointing out the fact that a Y12 kid had to fence in a tournament prior to Nats; I have learned a lot.
It is obvious the kid made a mistake, I never questioned that fact; my $1.25 is that someone at the scorer's table stated that he could have reversed the sheet prior to DE seeding, but CHOSE not to do so.
Also do you remember yourself 12 and going to a movie vs. your first MLB game, a level of adrenaline is a touch different

The line has to be drawn somewhere. If you don't like the line, then you ought to lobby to change the rules. The "slippery slope" argument applies even more so to kids.

Did the coach or the parent teach the kid about signing scoresheets? They CHOSE not to do so. The child CHOSE to sign something without reading it. It's a very important life skill, and a fencing tournament is a great low consequence place of learning that lesson.

Responsibility is rough. I try to teach my kids that they need to work on their part of their responsibilities, and deal with the consequences. I certainly would NEVER blame a worker at a tournament for enforcing the rules for a mistake my child made.

[fencerina dad]

Will this be on the USFA web site? And if so where

[Mr.MightyMouse]

The line has to be drawn somewhere. If you don't like the line, then you ought to lobby to change the rules. The "slippery slope" argument applies even more so to kids.

Did the coach or the parent teach the kid about signing scoresheets? They CHOSE not to do so. The child CHOSE to sign something without reading it. It's a very important life skill, and a fencing tournament is a great low consequence place of learning that lesson.

Responsibility is rough. I try to teach my kids that they need to work on their part of their responsibilities, and deal with the consequences. I certainly would NEVER blame a worker at a tournament for enforcing the rules for a mistake my child made.

Could you point the rule out to me, I seem to be missing it?
Thanks in advance.
This was not my kid, I did not even know her, and for the 4th time the discussion is not about her, or her fate in the competition.
I am also not trying to blame anyone, but am basically baffled by some one reveling in his own obsequiousness
I never thought personally that responsibility was rough , but rather an honour or reward - but now we're getting away from fencing.

[tchwojko]

Could you point the rule out to me, I seem to be missing it?
Thanks in advance.

t.87
...
Immediately after the end of a pool ora direct elimination bout the Referee must bring together the two fencers, to announce clearly the score. He must say clearly "Mister X won against Mister Y with the following score..." Fencers must then sign the pool or bout score sheet, under the responsibility of the Referee who must check the accuracy of the results on this score sheet. Before teh score sheet is returned to the Technical Directlry, the Referee must indicate in writing if a fencer refuses to sign it. No subsequent appeal relating to the results will be allowed.

[tchwojko]

I never thought personally that responsibility was rough , but rather an honour or reward - but now we're getting away from fencing.

So whining about someone's own mistake and blaming the organizers is honorable?

I have no idea what point your trying to make.

Kid made mistake, paid consequences. I don't see the problem.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

t.87
...
Immediately after the end of a pool or a direct elimination bout the Referee must bring together the two fencers, to announce clearly the score. He must say clearly "Mister X won against Mister Y with the following score..." Fencers must then sign the pool or bout score sheet, under the responsibility of the Referee who must check the accuracy of the results on this score sheet. Before the score sheet is returned to the Technical Directory, the Referee must indicate in writing if a fencer refuses to sign it. No subsequent appeal relating to the results will be allowed.

I am sure the ref did not clearly announce each fencer's won/loss record - then the kid would know that she's tabbed under 4/2 and not 5/1; obviously the accuracy was not checked that well by the Ref either, but... to be honest I did not know of such rule.