07-08-2008, 01:49 PM
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#201 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,475
| No, refereeing may not be a closed cabal, but if you join you will certainly take your orders from one.
How many times on these boards have you seen a person say that the rules allow or even require X only to hear "If you do X you will not be hired again" or words to that effect?
You will follow the received "consensus", right or wrong, or don't let the door hit you in the rear.
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07-08-2008, 01:52 PM
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#202 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 214
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Guymelef 
What separates good referees from bad referees is ego. The good referees know that sometimes something happens, they say the wrong thing, they put up the wrong hand, they pull out the wrong card, etc. Depending on the situation they can go back and correct themself, or not. If they can't, they have to live with it, i.e. reversing on a 'statement of fact' generally opens the gates of hell. Good referees talk to anyone and everyone about their calls to try to minimize the probability of their making a bad call again. Bad referees, however, shut out the world. They do not seek advice, nor do they accept it. They do not consider the other side because they are the center of their own universe.
| THANK YOU! You summed up my feeling about bad referees. Even experienced referees can miss an action but they will admit it and say "I'm sorry, I didn't see it." But bad ones will just pick a side. I've seen experienced referees ask a respected coach on the strip, "How did I do?" afterwards get a feedback. Bad ones just walk off without any remorse.
Last edited by journalmom; 07-08-2008 at 11:08 PM.
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07-08-2008, 01:56 PM
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#203 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,458
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Originally Posted by Inquartata How many times on these boards have you seen a person say that the rules allow or even require X only to hear "If you do X you will not be hired again" or words to that effect? | That's not really how refereeing works, and is only said on the forums after a good deal of frustration when someone is clinging to a wrong or outdated interpretation of the rules which they refuse to give up on in the face of logic, expert opinion, or the rulebook. Most referees do it correctly because of a desire to do it right, not so they can be hired again. It's only the arguments where someone has no desire to referee correctly that this comes into play.
Last edited by mrbiggs; 07-08-2008 at 02:10 PM.
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07-08-2008, 01:57 PM
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#204 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,820
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquartata No, refereeing may not be a closed cabal, but if you join you will certainly take your orders from one.
How many times on these boards have you seen a person say that the rules allow or even require X only to hear "If you do X you will not be hired again" or words to that effect?
You will follow the received "consensus", right or wrong, or don't let the door hit you in the rear. | How DARE the FOC try to establish consistency in refereeing!!!
-m | |
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07-08-2008, 01:58 PM
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#205 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,820
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Originally Posted by mrbiggs I think the problem is that everything you said was true, making it less obvious that you were being sarcastic. | really??? I thought it was incredibly obvious that he was being sarcastic.
-m | |
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07-08-2008, 02:06 PM
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#206 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 123
| From now on when we're being sarcastic put stuff in "CAPS". i.e. "How DARE the FOC...." or "Their LOVE of fencing is greater and more important than the athlete's money and training time."
I think this will make it easier for everyone to understand when someone is being sarcastic.
Or people could l2read. n00bs.
-P | |
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07-08-2008, 02:10 PM
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#207 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,458
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Originally Posted by epeemike81 really??? I thought it was incredibly obvious that he was being sarcastic.
-m | I read his post through and realized that it's pretty obvious that he's being sarcastic.
That's what I get for skimming. | |
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07-08-2008, 02:59 PM
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#209 | | Curmudgeon-in-Chief
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Somewhere in your nightmares!
Posts: 23,475
| Quote:
Originally Posted by epeemike81 How DARE the FOC try to establish consistency in refereeing!!!
-m | Yes! I mean, particulary when their consistent position directly contradicts the rules, or removes some of the discretion given the referee by the rules!
How DARE a ref actually have the temerity to try to think for himself?! We are the FOC, we'll do your thinking FOR you!
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Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!
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07-08-2008, 03:03 PM
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#210 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Orem, Utah
Posts: 110
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Originally Posted by journalmom THANK YOU! You summed up my feeling about bad referees. Even experienced referees can miss an action but they will admit it and say "I'm sorry, I didn't see it." Inexperienced ones will just pick a side. I've seen experienced referees ask a respected coach on the strip, "How did I do?" afterwards get a feedback. Bad ones just walk off without any remorse. | I have been refereeing 30 plus years and have been with many of the top referees sharing a strip, mentoring or observing and in all my years I have never seen a referee turn around to a coach and ask "How did I do?"  I have seen respectable conversation after a bout about an action or sequence. Yes, inexperienced referee's do tend to walk off, but I do not believe without remorse, especially if there is the slightest possibility that they had called it wrong. Most of the inexperienced ones will most times be assigned with a more experienced referee who is there to help them and mentor them. This allows positive growth and development for the referee's and allows them opportunities to work with stronger talent. 
MD Stasinos | |
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07-08-2008, 03:15 PM
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#211 | | Scrub
Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami
Posts: 2,555
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Originally Posted by Mr Epee Sorry, for the confusion...
My post was intended as sarcasm.
I should have tagged it, as such. | The sarcasm came through loud and clear.
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"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."
- Homer Simpson | |
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07-08-2008, 03:21 PM
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#212 | | Scrub
Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami
Posts: 2,555
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Originally Posted by journalmom Bad ones just walk off without any remorse. | You may be confusing that with slinking off to go lick their wounds; putting on a brave face after knowing they've blown a call, or being berated by a coach.
Perhaps you've never f@#$ed anything up, realized too late that you had, but still had to soldier through the rest of the event when all you wanted to do was disappear with your humiliation.
__________________
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand."
- Homer Simpson | |
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07-08-2008, 03:34 PM
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#213 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,094
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Originally Posted by Phorid | The touch beginning at 7:45, which tied it up, what was the exact call? It's tough to tell between the angle and the video quality. Meinhardt's first attack good? or first attack no, no response from Getz, new attack from Meinhardt?
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Andrew
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07-08-2008, 03:39 PM
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#214 | | Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 67
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Originally Posted by Phorid | Thank you! Great bout. | |
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07-08-2008, 04:31 PM
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#215 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Hall School, Wellesely, MA
Posts: 3,820
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Originally Posted by Inquartata Yes! I mean, particulary when their consistent position directly contradicts the rules, or removes some of the discretion given the referee by the rules!
How DARE a ref actually have the temerity to try to think for himself?! We are the FOC, we'll do your thinking FOR you! | I don't believe I've ever heard an interpretation which contradicts the rules. as for removing discretion, I'd call it removing ambiguity, and it's a good thing.
As a fencer, don't you want to have a good idea about how things should be called when you come to the strip??
-m | |
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07-08-2008, 04:49 PM
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#216 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Chevy Chase, Maryland
Posts: 392
| All I ask for is consistency and honesty from the referee for good, bad, or indifferent.
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I know my share of history
How hard it is to be free
From wearing masks that turn to skin
Hiding what you could have been
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07-08-2008, 08:29 PM
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#217 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 268
| That Metz/Meinhardt video makes me want to fence foil again, darnit.
That was awesome to watch. | |
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07-08-2008, 08:56 PM
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#218 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Charlottesville VA
Posts: 3,084
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Guymelef Capitol Division Rocks! | Does anyone know who was on the team? DCFC has a good bunch to chose from...
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Just another lost soul saved by the (hit) First Church of EPEE!
Bona Na Croin. "Neither Collar nor Crown"
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07-08-2008, 09:31 PM
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#219 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 214
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Originally Posted by mdstasinos I have been refereeing 30 plus years and have been with many of the top referees sharing a strip, mentoring or observing and in all my years I have never seen a referee turn around to a coach and ask "How did I do?" I have seen respectable conversation after a bout about an action or sequence. | I meant just that - after the bout, not after a call, that I heard a ref turned to one of the coaches and asked, "How did I do? Not too bad, right?" Quote:
Yes, inexperienced referee's do tend to walk off, but I do not believe without remorse, especially if there is the slightest possibility that they had called it wrong. Most of the inexperienced ones will most times be assigned with a more experienced referee who is there to help them and mentor them. This allows positive growth and development for the referee's and allows them opportunities to work with stronger talent.
MD Stasinos
| I meant the "bad" referees walk off without remorse, not the inexperienced. | |
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07-08-2008, 09:57 PM
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#220 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,069
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Originally Posted by CvilleFencer Does anyone know who was on the team? DCFC has a good bunch to chose from... | Check out the thread with complete team coverage.
Prise de Fer has everything, team sheets, de's, etc. http://www.prisedefer.com/ | |
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