2008 Summer Nationals

[KD5MDK]

You know, that would have been a legitimate appeal...

[Inquartata]

Geez.

The sabre refereeing I have seen has been pretty good, for the most part. ( Although we'll see if I maintain that position after Wednesday ).

[tbryan]

I was actually watching a bout that was beyond “questionably bad”. It was in the Y14MF DE bout; I believe that it was the 7 or 8 seed against a 57 seed....the point I’m trying to prove in this description of the event is that the directors aren’t good at this year’s summer nationals.

Well, you've succeeded in telling us about one referee who did a poor job in the round of 64 of the Y14 foil event. But the point is that there are always some "trainee" referees at Summer Nationals, and Summer Nationals is often the first event other than a friendly local tournament that these referees attempt. Some of them rise to the occasion, and they leave the tournament with newly-updated ratings. Some of them crumble. Many of these refs are okay, but they quickly find themselves over their head. That is, they are refereeing bouts where they realize that they cannot see the action on many touches. If they also have poor strip control, things often go from bad to worse. If they (and the fencers) are lucky, the referee assigner pulls them as soon as possible and finds events that they can handle.

In situations this bad, it can be useful to send someone to the bout committee table to explain the situation. It's even better if you can send someone whose opinion they already know and trust (a respected coach, competitor, or referee).

So, perhaps that was your first experience with really bad refereeing at Summer Nationals. I think that we were more interested in the general level of refereeing. For example, if your club sent several fencers to the same event, and all of them had referees that bad for their pools, it would really tell us something about the level of the refereeing.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

You know, that would have been a legitimate appeal...

Yes, of course, the coach did try very vividly to get the directeur to stop the bout, except that the ref ignored him and kept moving forward.
The "sufferer" kid was too confused to complain, or stop fencing.

After the bout the coach went to the FOC Observer and was told that it was over, and they will talk to the ref about future misgivings.

Also in Girls Saber an L was recorded instead of W in the pool, the fencer signed the sheet - so no one to blame but her. She caught it before the DE seeding - ran over to the scorer's table - was told it's too late to change the scoresheet. Her record went as 4-2 instead of 5-1, she proceeded to lose her first DE, could have been different.

Finally, for the first time in quite a while I saw a lengthy argument over recorded scores in a pool, during one of the bouts - not afterwards; which resulted into a befuddled, heavy accented coach in a rather unique getup, loudly proclaiming his innocence and willing to prove it with his fists. Took a bit to convince him that his integrity was not at stake - so it ended up as a touch of comic relief.
In refs' defense all of the aforementioned happened rather early in the competition, and as stated earlier - IMHO this was one of the best directed Saber national events I've seen in years; and all 3 of the young'ins were not seen by your humble servant over following few days. It was so good... that I saw Ivan Lee direct foil while saber was in full swing, which again IMHO, has to be somewhat of a mistreated asset.

[mdstasinos]

Also in Girls Saber an L was recorded instead of W in the pool, the fencer signed the sheet - so no one to blame but her. She caught it before the DE seeding - ran over to the scorer's table - was told it's too late to change the scoresheet. Her record went as 4-2 instead of 5-1, she proceeded to lose her first DE, could have been different.

I was At the bout committee table when this or the exact same thing happened. The fault with the score sheet was discovered after the round results were posted and just before the DE table was to be posted. The fencer as well as the rest of the fencers in the pool checked and signed the pool sheet at the end of the pool, It was then signed by the referee and turned in. The fencer in question with their coach ran up to the table after the postings stating the problem. The sheet was pulled and presented to the fencer. she said she signed the pool sheet but didn't look at the bout results to see if they were correct.
Once the fencer signs the score sheet and it has been turned in the fencers are stating that the results are correct and it cannot be changed.
Here's an example: I was a referee sent with the men's cadet group to Koblenz, Germany for a cabet foil competition. Fencer ****o USA finished a DE bout defeating his competitor. The Referee had both fencers sign the score sheet, without a score, then recorded the score and turned it in. As in the previous example, it was discovered in the postings, both fencers went to the table confirming who won, the referee confirmed who had won,(****o), but the bout committee refused to change the result for the fact that both fencers an the referee signed the score sheet. It was not fair but it is the procedure with the FIE and I know ****o will never sign a sheet again without checking and confirming the bout score. The previous fencer will never make that mistake again as well.
MD Stasinos

[Mom2fencrs]

It was not fair but it is the procedure with the FIE and I know ****o will never sign a sheet again without checking and confirming the bout score. The previous fencer will never make that mistake again as well.

Experience keeps a dear school. Sometimes the best way to learn is the one that takes your breath away but gives you an opportunity to get it right "next time".....Gotta be thinking not just while actually fencing....

[DJ Apostrophe]

<snip>It was not fair but it is the procedure with the FIE </snip>

Actually, at world cups and other FIE events (the designated cadet events are NOT an FIE events), the fencers no longer sign the scoresheets. It is the referee's responsibility to record the score and winner correctly. We continue to enforce the signature procedure at a national level (and it appears Germany does as well), but that is not how it is done by the FIE.

-w

[teacup]

Also in Girls Saber an L was recorded instead of W in the pool, the fencer signed the sheet - so no one to blame but her. She caught it before the DE seeding - ran over to the scorer's table - was told it's too late to change the scoresheet. Her record went as 4-2 instead of 5-1, she proceeded to lose her first DE, could have been different.

This means that the other fencer signed off on the incorrect number of victories and loses too.

(My son did the same thing. Oh well, hopefully a lesson has been learned.)

[teacup]

Here's an example: I was a referee sent with the men's cadet group to Koblenz, Germany for a cabet foil competition. Fencer ****o USA finished a DE bout defeating his competitor. The Referee had both fencers sign the score sheet, without a score, then recorded the score and turned it in. As in the previous example, it was discovered in the postings, both fencers went to the table confirming who won, the referee confirmed who had won,(****o), but the bout committee refused to change the result for the fact that both fencers an the referee signed the score sheet. ...
MD Stasinos

But whenever I have been to Germany, the pool results are scrolling live on multiple monitors throughout the room so fencers have the opportunity to catch mistakes before signing.

[ToucheVerte]

I was actually watching a bout that was beyond “questionably bad”. It was in the Y14MF DE bout; I believe that it was the 7 or 8 seed against a 57 seed. Once I heard a few uproars, I turned my attention to the bout. Apparently, both sides were very anxious and at one point, the bar fell and both sides of the fencer’s each went their “AWWs” and “Boos” in a very hilarious manner.
At 8-4, the fencer on the left ( I think it was Ching or Chan or something against someone in Lucchetti) scored a one light touch with a counter attack and the director said
-dramatic silence-
I don’t know
And both sides are shaking their heads. Seriously. Both sides are even saying “Sir its one light.” The fencer on the left took off his mask and made a face that screamed: “What the {censored}?!” Then the director finally gave the fencer the touch.
After that, (From now, I shall refer the person on the left as “C”) C kept yelling “One light!!!!!!” After every touch, because all his touches were one light, and most of us just laughed.
The final score was 15-5 and all coaches were screaming, some dropped the pole , and some held their heads as a sign of “WHAT THE {insert bad word}”
Either way, the point I’m trying to prove in this description of the event is that the directors aren’t good at this year’s summer nationals.
“Beyond bad” is not a very appropriate term for this event, but the way of directing in this bout is the definition of “unbelievable hilarious”

I was watching that bout also. Hundreds of hours of training, thousands of dollars in lessons, equipment and fees (as well as the odyssey of actually getting to the event) only to have an incompetent referee destroy any vestige of fairness.

[nyacfencing]

Probably redundant but someone may not have heard. It was DCFC over NYAC in Junior Men's epee team. NYAC had been looking real good until the gold medal bout. Wasn't keeping count but it just seemed to me that NYAC fell short in their attacks. I saw a lot of attempted toe touches that were short and lost the point to DCFC. And in in-fighting DCFC was on top.

We were robbed! Damn that President Bush...

[Mr Epee]

I was watching that bout also. Hundreds of hours of training, thousands of dollars in lessons, equipment and fees (as well as the odyssey of actually getting to the event) only to have an incompetent referee destroy any vestige of fairness.

I hope you aren't questioning the ability and motivation of the USFA's Referees. Many of them have worked long hard hours, taken tremendous mental and emotional abuse without being paid.

They're working because they LOVE fencing. Their LOVE of fencing is greater and more important than the athlete's money and training time.

How DARE you.

US National Championships is THE event for referee development. Some of those referees have never worked a fencing event as a professional before... and some only work once or twice a year... Now, I know what you're thinking. A fencer can easily spend a couple hundred hours and thousands of dollars to compete in an event... the event should be run professionally... by professionals...

Well you really need to get past that line of thought. These referees LOVE fencing, and we the fencers, coaches, and parents owe it to them to have this training opportunity.

Or how bout this one?

Well it's only Div III, or it's only U-14...

Did I miss the discount that is extended to these fencers to compete under the supervision of trainee referees?

[Guymelef]

Summer Nationals 06 was my first time refereeing nationally. I signed myself available to all the NACs that year, but wasn't hired. Nationals is a huge event and the USFA understands that they need all available hands. The noobs, like me, are thrown into the youth events. That is both good and bad. You have a lot of 'sideline emotion' going on in those. Summer Nationals makes you or breaks you as a referee, it is boot camp. I shared my impressions of that in an article in US Fencing. After Miami 07, I was left weighing the beauty versus the ugliness. Frankly, I'm proud of the San Jose cadre and all who will come after. I wish them all the best.

[Guymelef]

Capitol Division Rocks!

[bob46]

I hope you aren't questioning the ability and motivation of the USFA's Referees. Many of them have worked long hard hours, taken tremendous mental and emotional abuse without being paid.

They're working because they LOVE fencing. Their LOVE of fencing is greater and more important than the athlete's money and training time.

How DARE you.

US National Championships is THE event for referee development. Some of those referees have never worked a fencing event as a professional before... and some only work once or twice a year... Now, I know what you're thinking. A fencer can easily spend a couple hundred hours and thousands of dollars to compete in an event... the event should be run professionally... by professionals...

Well you really need to get past that line of thought. These referees LOVE fencing, and we the fencers, coaches, and parents owe it to them to have this training opportunity.

Or how bout this one?

Well it's only Div III, or it's only U-14...

Did I miss the discount that is extended to these fencers to compete under the supervision of trainee referees?

Many of the directors who directed in the SN's were good. The ones we're complaining about are the ones who may love fencing but have no idea how to direct (or very little idea).

Technically, it's not U-14, its Y-14

[mdstasinos]

Many of the directors who directed in the SN's were good. The ones we're complaining about are the ones who may love fencing but have no idea how to direct (or very little idea).

Technically, it's not U-14, its Y-14

Technically, they are not director's, they are referee's.
MD Stasinos

[journalmom]

Well you really need to get past that line of thought. These referees LOVE fencing, and we the fencers, coaches, and parents owe it to them to have this training opportunity.

I understand your empathy and we all agree. The referee should have the opportunity like the Nationals to train.

However, don't you think the fencers who are fencing in the Nationals LOVE fencing too? I mean, they wouldn't be there after spending hundreds of hours in training, thousands of dollars spent on classes and etc. if they didn't LOVE fencing. And the referees wouldn't have the fencers to 'referee' if there weren't any of these of fencers who LOVE fencing. But for those who get unfair calls and have their chances taken away, the referees, who presumably LOVE fencing, are to blame.

Yeah, we appreciate the referees who spend all day at the venue. We are just asking you to do a good job. You may have taken a class and passed an exam to get there but the fencers spent much more than that to get to the Nationals. You should know.

[Mr Epee]

I understand your empathy and we all agree. The referee should have the opportunity like the Nationals to train.

Sorry, for the confusion...

My post was intended as sarcasm.

I should have tagged it, as such.

[Mr.MightyMouse]

I was At the bout committee table when this or the exact same thing happened. The fault with the score sheet was discovered after the round results were posted and just before the DE table was to be posted. The fencer as well as the rest of the fencers in the pool checked and signed the pool sheet at the end of the pool, It was then signed by the referee and turned in. The fencer in question with their coach ran up to the table after the postings stating the problem. The sheet was pulled and presented to the fencer. she said she signed the pool sheet but didn't look at the bout results to see if they were correct.
Once the fencer signs the score sheet and it has been turned in the fencers are stating that the results are correct and it cannot be changed.
Here's an example: I was a referee sent with the men's cadet group to Koblenz, Germany for a cabet foil competition. Fencer ****o USA finished a DE bout defeating his competitor. The Referee had both fencers sign the score sheet, without a score, then recorded the score and turned it in. As in the previous example, it was discovered in the postings, both fencers went to the table confirming who won, the referee confirmed who had won,(****o), but the bout committee refused to change the result for the fact that both fencers an the referee signed the score sheet. It was not fair but it is the procedure with the FIE and I know ****o will never sign a sheet again without checking and confirming the bout score. The previous fencer will never make that mistake again as well.
MD Stasinos

IMHO - if you had time to change it - you should have.
Fencing is done on the strip not on paper , and being a rule upholder of the rule no one ever heard of, is like being a grave sweeper of the cemetery no one visits (see Babbel for reference).Ruining a 12 or 14 year old's (no relation or acquaintance to your humble servant) trip of the year is less than zero to be smug about.
I personally could give 10 shmegmas about what happened in Koblenz, Berlin, Bonn, Dresden or Bobojon Ghafurov for that matter.
There is a right and there is a wrong, and again IMHO, taking steps to discourage preteen from continuing her fencing career is not a subject of pride.

[Guymelef]

Refereeing is not a closed cabal. If you don't like it, get involved. Try refereeing club practices to develop the 'eye.' Then, think about taking the test, there is usually a seminar at or near your division every year.

What separates good referees from bad referees is ego. The good referees know that sometimes something happens, they say the wrong thing, they put up the wrong hand, they pull out the wrong card, etc. Depending on the situation they can go back and correct themself, or not. If they can't, they have to live with it, i.e. reversing on a 'statement of fact' generally opens the gates of hell. Good referees talk to anyone and everyone about their calls to try to minimize the probability of their making a bad call again. Bad referees, however, shut out the world. They do not seek advice, nor do they accept it. They do not consider the other side because they are the center of their own universe.