Fencing masks for horses

[Rock]

Regarding cavalry sabre fencing and it's relation to current sport sabre fencing, Maitre Delmar Calvert was trained with cavalry sabres while in the French Foreign Legion cavalry (late 1930's), and was simultaneously trained as a (sport) fencing master by the French Military Physical Educatoion school.

He's still training competitors 2-3 days/week.

He's 83, "sharp as a tack", and can give first-hand decriptions of true military (horseback) sabre training.

From what I've learned from Maitre Calvert, and from my own experience with different sabres from different countries and time periods, the approriate horse protection will depend on the nature of the sabres used, and the selected scoring methodology.

Please ask questions. I'll pass them on to the "real thing".

Rock

[Jay83]

Wow.... please post pictures when you get it all set up...

[kuroutesshin]

New series is called "Sixte in the City". She rides a horse with a fencing mask on.

...which makes it easier to determine which one is the horse!

[Ken Mondschein]

Please ask questions. I'll pass them on to the "real thing".
Rock

Well, considering I know almost nothing save by reading, I was wondering if he could suggest a scoring system, and what the drills should be. Was there a manual they worked off of? (Language is not a barrier; I read French very well.)

-Ken

[gorgie101]

Regarding cavalry sabre fencing and it's relation to current sport sabre fencing, Maitre Delmar Calvert was trained with cavalry sabres while in the French Foreign Legion cavalry (late 1930's), and was simultaneously trained as a (sport) fencing master by the French Military Physical Educatoion school.

He's still training competitors 2-3 days/week.

He's 83, "sharp as a tack", and can give first-hand decriptions of true military (horseback) sabre training.

From what I've learned from Maitre Calvert, and from my own experience with different sabres from different countries and time periods, the approriate horse protection will depend on the nature of the sabres used, and the selected scoring methodology.

Please ask questions. I'll pass them on to the "real thing".

Rock

PLEASE get him to have an oral history done. I use to work at an archive and we had oral histories from people that were born in the 1850's. It is such a great thing to have around when they are gone. If you want more info on how to go about it PM me.

Sorry for the drift...

[Swordmaster]

It's Estoc that refused to sell me anything. I am not particularly interested in wireless fencing (or FIE/USFA fencing in general), and so they are not particularly interested in me.

Actually Ken,
I wasn't responding to you if you read my post you will notice I was responding to someone else's post. I understand you are not interested in horseback fencing. You are dreaming of dueling with sabres on horseback.
The system that has been developed by, dare I say it, Estoc, is the only one of it's kind to actually score the touches of fencers on horseback. Judging from your posts here I can see where they might have had reservations about selling you pieces of their system so you could develop your own "system" of sabre dueling on horseback.

[Ken Mondschein]

I understand you are not interested in horseback fencing. You are dreaming of dueling with sabres on horseback.
The system that has been developed by, dare I say it, Estoc, is the only one of it's kind to actually score the touches of fencers on horseback. Judging from your posts here I can see where they might have had reservations about selling you pieces of their system so you could develop your own "system" of sabre dueling on horseback.

Dear Internet Expert-Person,

You can "understand" whatever you like, but there is no call to make such quasi-inflammatory assumptions about me or my motivations. I am not "dreaming of dueling" on horseback, as I do not wish to be prosecuted for murder. I would like to learn to fence on horseback in a mode consistent with my training in classical fencing. Reading what you wrote, I am glad I chose not to do business with you.

I can understand Estoc wanting to protect elements of their proprietary system from being copied, or even not wanting to break up complete sets of equipment (which is what they told me). However, if you can somehow logically defend why the Estoc system is somehow "fencing" while whatever I might choose to do is not, I will gladly acknowledge you have the right of the matter. Until then, I will treat you as I do all fools: By ignoring you.

[tchwojko]

The web is an amazing technology.

Only on the internet can one get into a fight over the nuances of the equipment for fencing/dueling/swordplay while riding a horse/donkey/emu.

[Purple Fencer]

Dear Internet Expert-Person,

You can "understand" whatever you like, but there is no call to make such quasi-inflammatory assumptions about me or my motivations. I am not "dreaming of dueling" on horseback, as I do not wish to be prosecuted for murder. I would like to learn to fence on horseback in a mode consistent with my training in classical fencing. Reading what you wrote, I am glad I chose not to do business with you.

I can understand Estoc wanting to protect elements of their proprietary system from being copied, or even not wanting to break up complete sets of equipment (which is what they told me). However, if you can somehow logically defend why the Estoc system is somehow "fencing" while whatever I might choose to do is not, I will gladly acknowledge you have the right of the matter. Until then, I will treat you as I do all fools: By ignoring you.

Wow....way to score points with a vendor who might've been able to help you out...good goin' there, sparky.

[Swordmaster]

Well, considering I know almost nothing save by reading, I was wondering if he could suggest a scoring system, ... (Language is not a barrier; I read French very well.)-Ken

If you are aware of the club in Britanny, France (which is using the Estoc system and sport fencing sabres) and you want a scoring system; why are you so interested in changing it to a sabre which would be difficult to electrify (the sabre you mentioned in an earlier post

I want to use heaver sabers, like the Hanweis

) and not use a proven wireless scoring system? Is it the cost? The arrogance of the French?
I answered this thread initially because you were looking for "Horse Goggles". I gave you two options, US based, that cost less than the ones in France. You were also directed to other sites which carried pelling for horses.
I offered you a solution to your scoring problem, but yet you reject it out of hand because of how you were treated and what you thought I implied in my previous post.
Estoc worked with the club at Brittany to develop this system to be both a safe and an accurate representation of fencing sabre on horseback, with the ability to score touches electronically on ones opponents (yes plural you can fight more than one opponent at a time and keep score.)
The reason I said you were "dreaming of dueling sabre on horseback" was due to your previous posts and your dismissal of the horseback fencing system that was based on a sport fencing sabre.

It's Estoc that refused to sell me anything. I am not particularly interested in wireless fencing (or FIE/USFA fencing in general), and so they are not particularly interested in me.

However, if you can somehow logically defend why the Estoc system is somehow "fencing" while whatever I might choose to do is not, I will gladly acknowledge you have the right of the matter. Until then, I will treat you as I do all fools: By ignoring you.

I really don't understand your attack on me as I was merely trying give you practical and proven options. I really don't need your acknowlegement, I have already shown you proven examples as to my "right of the matter".

[jkdjeff]

I can't imagine any scenario under which you could make this reasonably safe for either the humans involved, or the horses (who don't have the option of refusing to participate), particularly if you're going to try to use cavalry sabers of a realistic weight and construction to simulate period weapons.

I normally avoid the whole classical vs. sport fencing brouhaha (despite being firmly on the sport fencing side), but this sounds like a potentially really unfortunate attempt to relive the past.

[Ken Mondschein]

As I tried to make clear, I am not interested in keeping score electrically. You are assuming that one MUST keep score electrically and MUST also use a modern sport saber for this activity. Even if I were to use an FIE blade (because, honestly, the steel quality is much better), I would not electrify it. I don't know where people are getting the idea that I want to use some Civil War wristbreaker; I want to use a 19th century dueling saber, which is much lighter.

Yes, you did give me a solution to the problem, and I'm grateful, but a quick Internet search shows that I can get a pelling (that is, the same item you offered me) from a racing supply company for much cheaper than you listed.

I will not argue about classical vs. modern fencing. However, I don't know why the purpose for which I choose to use their equipment should make a difference to an equipment vendor.

Thank you, and good-bye.

[Swordmaster]

FYI,
There is no such thing as an "FIE" approved sabre blade... Leon Paul marks one with an FIE stamp, but according to the SEMI representative, (I know I am speaking Greek to you, but bare with me) that is not an approved blade.
As far the the price of the pelling equipment is concerned, this is still a free market society last time I looked and I would not be able to stay in business if i didn't turn a profit every now and then, especially when it comes to being able to just look something up on the internet and offer a service of delivering what a person is unable or unwilling to look for on their own.

So Long and Good Luck in your venture.

[Purple Fencer]

FYI,
There is no such thing as an "FIE" approved sabre blade... Leon Paul marks one with an FIE stamp, but according to the SEMI representative, (I know I am speaking Greek to you, but bare with me) that is not an approved blade.
As far the the price of the pelling equipment is concerned, this is still a free market society last time I looked and I would not be able to stay in business if i didn't turn a profit every now and then, especially when it comes to being able to just look something up on the internet and offer a service of delivering what a person is unable or unwilling to look for on their own.

So Long and Good Luck in your venture.

Attack from some dude on a horse...parry-riposte....touch to the dude from Louisiana!!

[Inquartata]

Tsk! I can understand the appeal. It's a different sort of fun than sport sabre fencing, to be sure, but that doesn't make it a lesser fun. De gustibus non disputandum est

There are people who do this with heavier swords than Radaelli sabres ( to say nothing of lances ), and I'm not aware of any reports to the SPCA about horse maimings. These folks love their horses, and anyway, they are too expensive to put at real risk.

Of course, I'm not sure about the speed and vigor of the combats. Perhaps they are choreographed, or at 3/4 speed, or something.

[Rock]

Here's a list of considerations.

First, here are some quotes from the 1862 US Army Cavalry manual (republished by Stackpole Press).

"The instructor pays particular attention that the men do not employ a degree of force in the sabre exercise, which not only is less necessary than skill and suppleness, but which is even prejudicial."

"Thrusts should always be used in preference, as they require less force, and their result is more prompt, sure, and decisive. They should be directed quickly home to the body of the adversary, the sabre being held with the full grasp, the thumb pressing against the guard in the direction of the blade."

Second, cavalry sabres varied in their weight, balance, and utility depending on countries and time periods. Just like in modern sport fencing, the characteristics of the scoring tools (sabres in this case) will have to be agreed upon in advance of the proposed skill contest.

Third, the safety of all of the animals involved (human and non-human) takes priority over any other consideration.

Fourth, I referred to Maitre Calvert's experience in the French Foreign Legion horse cavalry. (Of course, in the late 1930's the cavalry did not go into combat with swords. When the Nazis invaded France, Maitre Calvert's unit served as a rear guard anti-tank unit, paralleling roads on horseback and attacking Nazi tanks and trucks. Documentation of his experiences is in WW2 is easily available.)

For military competiion, Maitre Calvert descrcibed games where one squad would wear sport fencing masks with a feather on top of the mask. The other squad, using sport fencing sabres, had to knock the feather off the other squad's soldiers.

(Regarding the scoring, I'll have to ask him on a day when we're both able to hear (we're both old and semi-deaf).

Cavalry was not a FENCING-based military function. The use of fencing in military cavalry competition was primarily to demonstrate ones HORSEMANSHIP (that is, interact with your horse to be in the right place at the right time, and then take advantage of it with a sword or lance).

Swordsmanship was learned on the ground, and then modified/restricted for use on horseback.

[Ken Mondschein]

"The instructor pays particular attention that the men do not employ a degree of force in the sabre exercise, which not only is less necessary than skill and suppleness, but which is even prejudicial."

...

Cavalry was not a FENCING-based military function. The use of fencing in military cavalry competition was primarily to demonstrate ones HORSEMANSHIP (that is, interact with your horse to be in the right place at the right time, and then take advantage of it with a sword or lance).

Swordsmanship was learned on the ground, and then modified/restricted for use on horseback.

Thanks, that's some of the best advice I've had.

[equine]

Does anybody know the correct name/number of the mounted parre? They were used for rear attacks primarily. I saw a book a number of year ago but it was in Polish so I could only look at the pictures. One parre looked like a high 5th but was well behind the head, another was a sort of high 7/1st but the hand was behind the left shoulder and the blade straight down. Very interesting looking stuff. What was also intersting is the calvary sabre is always used in the right hand.

[Inquartata]

If you look at plates of the parries in sources like Angelo they have names like "thigh protect", "bridle protect" and "horse protect". Nothing like the numeral system we use in fencing today.

[Grasshopper]

If you look at plates of the parries in sources like Angelo they have names like "thigh protect", "bridle protect" and "horse protect". Nothing like the numeral system we use in fencing today.

That's it. Next time I get scolded for making big parries sabre, I'm gonna say "Parry 12! I'm just trying to protect my horse dammit!"