Friend Throwing Life Away

[MyrddinsPrecint]

This is bordering on whiny and pathetic, definitely something you'd read in ****ing Cosmo, but she reads every other place I have to get bull**** like this off my chest, so I'm burdening you guys. I think you'll forgive me.



So, I've got this dilemma. And I know the answer is "I can't do anything"---- But I'd like to make sure. Really really sure.

One of my very closest friends is seeing someone everyone else hates. Or at least dislikes. Her other best friend and I both can't stand him, our other roommate wouldn't be on campus whenever he was. We threw a birthday party, and he was there, and days after we were getting comments from people to the effect of "why on earth is she dating him".

He's not abusive. Been there, done that, know what to look for. He's not controlling. There was a period of time when they were horrible to each other and emotionally manipulative, but they're over that. We were able to draw the line at that point ("In making each other miserable, you're making everyone else miserable too, fix it, end it, we don't care, but we wont' let you do this to each other"). Before, when they were downright bad for each other, we could say something. We were supposed to say something.

He has no social grace. I know, I know, I don't exactly go around in party dresses throwing cocktail parties, saying the perfect thing to every guest...... but you should meet my mother. And even my mother (who once called me "chunky" when my friends call me "emaciated" on occasion) can't hold a candle to this guy. He manages to say the worst thing in any occasion, and is actually worse about it when she's around.

This winter, she was horribly unhappy and considering an open relationship, considering dumping him, considering taking a break..... And nothing's changed (oh, he plays much more World of Warcraft)....

But he just proposed, and she just accepted.


He's not the kind of person I'd ever see her with (other than they're sexually compatible), and all of her friends are convinced she's making a huge mistake..... but we don't really think we can tell her that in those terms without hurting our friendship............


What's more important? Telling her she's making a big mistake, or being able to be there for her when she figures it out???

[magic_moose]

1. You never really truly know what is going on in another person's head, or in someone else's relationship.

2. Other people are not really interested in hearing what you think of their relationships anyway (see item 1).

Remain as a friend and don't try to interfere.

If you are right and calling this correctly, she might want friends before long.
If you are wrong, you will have lost a good friend to no purpose.

[Inquartata]

Is it all her female friends who dislike him, or male ones too?

If the latter, you have cause to worry. Just as women understand women better than men do, men understand men better than women do. If other men have no use for a guy, that should be taken as a clear warning signal. Similarly, a man should steer clear of a women other women distrust...

[Fencergrl]

I wouldn't worry too much about her marrying a guy that is "a bit off". <shrug> Lots of people get divorces when they realize the person they married isn't quite right for them or their relationship has changed. You live and learn. Bad relationships can be better learning experiences than good ones sometimes.

This may seem like a peculiar attitude to have, but this guy sounds a little like my first husband. He was socially awkward. Said goofy stuff, no one liked him (but no one wanted to tell me). I knew all this... but still there was something endearing about this social misfit. I saw a side others missed. The relationship lasted way longer than I ever thought it would (or anyone else expected).

In the end, it was best we parted ways. I have never seen him since, nor want to. Still... I'll always have a soft spot for what we shared. I don't regret the relationship even though I would never describe it as a good one.

I wouldn't worry about what your friend decides. It's her life and her choices. As her friend you need to support her.

[seak]

This sounds a lot like one of my best friend in college's relationship. He was smooth and smarmy as opposed to socially awkward, but other then that same idea.

He proposed she accepted and then they moved to Boston (graduate school for her), once there she didn't have a social network built in, and neither did he, and she eventually came to realize her mistake. She was finally able to break up with him.

We all told her he was a mistake, but made it obvious we wanted to still be friends with her and just didn't agree with her bf choice. We're all still friends. I would just encourage a loooong engagement.

[BrianH]

Would it be reasonable (and within the bounds of friendship) to suggest to your friend that she take it slowly with her plans? In this situation I would counsel patience for all of those involved, especially if the primary attraction is merely sexual. Sex is easy to find, friendship more difficult. I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that marriage is a serious business, and should not be entered into without thorough consideration. I don't much care for the attitude that one should go ahead and marry whomever, since divorce is so easy to obtain. (I admitted to being old-fashioned.)

How compatible are their core values? Their shared vision of the future? Have they talked about children, and the sacrifices necessary to make a marriage and family work? Have they been together through any traumatic circumstances? Have they said why they want to marry?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Is it all her female friends who dislike him, or male ones too?

If the latter, you have cause to worry. Just as women understand women better than men do, men understand men better than women do. If other men have no use for a guy, that should be taken as a clear warning signal. Similarly, a man should steer clear of a women other women distrust...

Ask Telk. Telk can't stand him. Also other guys. But given our scenario, I have less data about how guys like him.

How compatible are their core values? Their shared vision of the future? Have they talked about children, and the sacrifices necessary to make a marriage and family work? Have they been together through any traumatic circumstances? Have they said why they want to marry?

They have little in common on core values. For example, she didn't have electricity the entire time she grew up, and didn't have a tv at all for a long time. She would want her kids playing outside.

He has vowed to never in his life change a diaper....

[Nolano]

Hmm... If you're friend is throwing her life away, any chance I could get it instead? I'm in dire need. All I do is go to school, go to work, and fence.

[fatfencer]

I sympathize and agree you are probably correct....but then you had to add that 'Telk thought..' and I started to have my doubts.

I'm legitimately surprised Telk manages to have an opinion based on experience...wouldn't he rather have a 'study'?? Maybe some stats..

But, lets assume that this cat is as much of a douche as you say.

If you are truly a friend, just let her know that you wish to be but don't let her force you into being an enabler. Just tell her the truth. Tell her he's a douche and you don't want to be around him. WHEN her relationship doesn't work, don't say 'I told you so'.

Take it from me....women HATE 'I told you so', not that I really care what women think.

Don't enable, don't stomp on your friend with the truth. just let her know kindly but firmly that douchy-ness is not allowed in your bailiwick.

When you see Telk, tell him he's a douche. Men LOVE to hear the truth from a woman. It's so refreshing; besides you can tell him its from me and he won't be mad at you

Dear Abby has NOTHING on Fatfencer

FF

[Neinteen]

Dear Abby has NOTHING on Fatfencer

FF

so true.

[Fencergrl]

If you are truly a friend, just let her know that you wish to be but don't let her force you into being an enabler. Just tell her the truth. Tell her he's a douche and you don't want to be around him.

Have you ever been around when friends tell other friends what they think of their boyfriends? I have. I have never seen it go well. However it sounds good in theory.

[Fencergrl]

I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that marriage is a serious business, and should not be entered into without thorough consideration.

I agree. I certainly didn't feel this way with my first marriage and I doubt if the person we are discussing is truly taking it serious.

Divorce may be easy, but it's expensive and heartbreaking. If children are involved, then the parents remain involved, so the relationship cannot be severed, but tolerated.

[Lemonaide]

In reality, there's not much a person can do to point out that a relationship isn't very good. Case in point: I fenced with someone who everyone said to stop fencing with. But I persisted. Was it a good choice? In some ways yes and other ways no. He could be a total clod, but on the other hand he had a certain charm that was almost irresistable. Who could resist not know what would be said next, and not to mention that he has a lot of fencing talent up his sleeve. I did leave and go to another salle, which had it's own difficulties.

In interpersonal relationships it's even more difficult, there is no accounting for the kinds of connections people make. If they're of legal age and both want to be in a relationship, then we can't do much about it unless he becomes a total beast, and that's the unfortunate truth.

[IvorDarcy]

It really does not matter what you or anyone else thinks about him. All that matters is what SHE thinks of him and she obviously thinks a lot about him or would not have accepted his proposal.
It sounds like you are very fond of your friend so you should be supportive of her and be there for her if she needs you.
Luckily, we all have free will and can pick and choose our own friends and if you take the advice of FF (who is making assumptions of the character of the man in question on the value of hearsay,without knowing or having met him) you run the risk of losing your friend. Tell her you will be there for her no matter what. That is what most people would expect of a friend.

[Nicksmom]

Tough spot. The main thing is that you are there for you friend. Let her know that you are there for HER. You don't have to agree with what she does, but it makes a difference to know that you'll be there when she realizes that she messed up.

[AdamH]

What's in it for her?

If it's genuinely a case of two weirdos finding compatibility, then so be it; marriage can be a funny business. If they can both see themselves together with each other in the forseeable future and she and he think they have something workable and they're kinky for each other, fair enough.

Winter is winter, and all. Does she think she has good chance of kicking our boy into touch? Do you?

If she's complaining about things to you (and more complaining than describing his monkey business) then you could be right. You -could- encourage her to put the proverbial foot down but it depends on what it is she wants? The engagement thing might grow old on her, or it might just cement what you don't understand she has.

[Timo]

I don't know, but it sounds just like he's a stereotypical nerd. I'm sorry you're uncomfortable around him, but if she likes him even nerds deserve love.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I don't know, but it sounds just like he's a stereotypical nerd. I'm sorry you're uncomfortable around him, but if she likes him even nerds deserve love.

I've made a habit of dating the nerds and geeks of the world.

I dated a sociopath nerd once. And, as most sociopaths, he was VERY charming on the surface.

I've also dated my share of slightly socially awkward guys. Or the more than slightly socially awkward.

The guys I dated didn't want to offend people, and would rather be seen as the painfully quiet guy in the corner than the asshole you can't stand.

This guy doesn't really make an effort.

[Timberwolf_CY]

I can't say for certain, but I will tell you about the complete ****-up that is my sister...

So my sister was/is always the rebel. I mean, she has to do things her way, Christ himself could come down and tell her otherwise, and she'd be like, "**** you, it's my money/life/etc."

She meets boyfriend 1, Tim in high school. Everyone else in my family knows he's a tard, but she doesn't care. She emancipates herself (my sister) and moves with him to a town 50 miles away, changing high schools and the associated baggage. She gets her CNA (Certified Nurse's Aid) in high school through a tech program.

She moves to Columbia, MO to go to Mizzou, and brings Tim along. She gets a job, goes to school full time, pays all the bills for him, rent, food, all that, he stays at home and watches TV and plays video games and pirates various forms of media, and does drugs (of every type you can imagine. He likes to think he can turn life, as in life the concept, the being, and reduce it to a mathematical formula on the walls...with his brother. He thinks everything is psychosematic ("Yeah dude, you could fly if you could get the brainpower to do it! Definitely..." or something like that was uttered by him).

He's on prescription drugs for mental disorder. Okay, fair enough, some people have problems (I have three: asthma, diabetes, and bi-polar, in order of severity, from least to hardest in ability of my personal ability to work with). Fine. But he does every type of "recreational" drug under the sun and gets my sister into.

My mom gets really sick with cancer.

My sister gets pregnant.

My mom dies, leaving my step-father, myself, and my sister with ~$34,000 each of life insurance funds.

My sister becomes a complete drug addict along with Tim, byes a $17,000 used Impala in TIM'S name, and we STILL can't get it (we as in my step-father and myself) that she's in deep ****. Oh, and she doesn't even have a lisence.

Finally Tim and her get into a drunken fist-fight (as, she explained later, has happend before, multiple times), and the police come, take their now 3-month old baby away, and put both of them in jail.

She goes to court on drug abuse charges and child endangerment for over a year. Oh, and by the way, all the money's gone; that took less than a year.

Later (ie., now) Tim's mom has custody of the baby boy (who is now almost 2 years old), and she just started admitting the whole thing was a mistake a few months ago.

Tim kept the Impala, and totaled it, and two other cars, in the span of year.

Now...she's with another guy, Justin, who abuses her, they both get staggering drunk at least 4 times a week, and, again, neither my grandmother nor I nor my step-father can tell her this is all wrong.

She's been to the mental hospital twice at least since dating Justin, and been through three jobs. I stopped her from commiting suicide once, because of his abuse. But Justin is still okay.

I'm not trying to depress you or tell you that your friend is getting ready to die from drug overdose or anything like that.

I'm saying that, there is something there between this guy and your friend that none of you see. It may be a lack of willpower, self-esteem, or both (as is the case with my sister), or it may be something else. What I'm really trying to say is that, no matter what you and everyone else tell her, she is probably not going to change her mind. She is probably more aware than you realize of what everyone thinks, she is just choosing to ignore it.

Ultimately you'll have to make a decision: either tell her what you and everyone else thinks (and have some friends with you when you do, so she doesn't think you are just being delusional), or let it go and support her when the time comes. Or else do nothing, as I have chosen with my sister (the reason being, my sister is spoiled, lying brat who only cares about herself, and it would take a lot for me to do much of anything to help my sister, because like fencers and coaches who find a ref they can abuse, once you give in, she never stops nagging and abusing and manipulating you).

So yeah, good luck with this, I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but one thing is for sure, as others have said: there is something there that you don't know about, and it is that one thing that you don't know that is likely holding them together.

[telkanuru]

Ask Telk. Telk can't stand him. Also other guys. But given our scenario, I have less data about how guys like him.

In his defense, that tends to be the case with anyone that has a pulse, rather than a sign of being a jerk

But yes, his talking tends to make me want to punch kittens.