Coaching Certification

[Allen Evans]

MdA, I'd love to sit it in, but I won't be getting in until the 5th.

Dairus, how do you access the material you've put together at the NWFC? And are you planning any coaching training in the future? (and congratulations on getting married!)

tbryan. I think you've summed up my points decently well (I won't speak for Jason). There is some confusion about an "American School". I don't think I'm advocating a way of fencing, but I am advocating a way of learning fencing and a way of talking about fencing. I'd like to see a framework established that lets us -- as coaches -- have a solid background for what we DO teach.

As a somewhat "sideways" example: I had some intensive training in the Tauber Method of Epee (often called "the German method" though there are a lot of different schools of epee in Germany). I found that the Tauber Method had most of the weaknesses others have described. But what the method did do is give me a laundry list of critical issues and a framework to build lessons on. I don't teach Tauber Method anymore, but I found that it helped me during the learning stages of me teaching epee.

I would hope that an "Amerian Approach" would give beginning coaches a framework to do the same.

I think that the Internet would be a great tool in developing and propogating this information. I think it would also be the first step in the USFCA breaking down some walls and becoming a very active organization in the US.

Allen Evans

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by darius

Even if the USFA wanted to get behind such a project, there'd be backstabbing, infighting, and turf wars between "interested parties" before pen ever got put to paper. (Especially if there was a budget involved.)

I think this has certainly been a factor in the past. Some ways to avoid this: right now, there isn't a budget. Second, this won't be a "you must fence this way document", which has doomed attempts in the past, and is still an issue at Coaches College, to some extent. Finally, as we've mentioned, I don't see this as being adopted by senior coaches, but as a tool for coaches new to the sport, of which we have many many every year.

Originally Posted by darius

However, our situation is unique, in that we can't match the motivation levels of the Chinese athletes, or the ownership of the sport that the French / Italians claim. How can we teach in a way that maximizes our strengths and limits our weaknesses?

This is an excellent question. What are our current strengths and weaknesses? I think one of our strengths as a fencing nation is that we ARE very adaptable, and will quickly steal a good idea (if it's recognized as such in time) and attempt to integrate it into what we do already. I think that one of our weaknesses is that we have access to a lot of information, but don't have the framework to always process it well. I would hope that something like this might serve as framework to help integrate new information (though this may be beyond its initial scope).

Darius, wasn't Micheal's Master's thesis conclude that one of the things needed to improve American fencing was just this sort of approach? I never saw the document, but Bob Marx mentioned something along those lines to me.

Allen Evans

[MdA]

Originally Posted by tbryan

OK.
With USFCA, I get a certificate. To get the certificate, I have to become a better coach. I seek out mentors. I study by myself or with associates. I make myself a better coach. But once I go through the effort to make myself a better coach, why do I need the certification? I already got what I really wanted.

As someone already mentioned in this thread. The certificate helps when applying for jobs ...especially at public institutions or colleges and universities.

It helped me get on the faculty at a local community college...of course my MS in an unrelated field also helped

In my case, my Prevot certificate was extremely helpful when I moved to Germany for three years. It helped me continue my Masters training from that point.

It helped me get space for my first private club (no charge) at a private school and start a class at a gymnastics center.

In today's litigious society, certification helps protect the coach.

[darius]

How bout July 4 for a meeting at Nationals? We can find a conference room somewhere.

Let me look at my coaching schedule for Nationals; I'm there for the haul, but some days will probably be worse than others.

I'd also like to facilitate Allen, since his perspectives are always valuable. I'm of two minds on including Michael; he's a coach development guru, but because he's the expert, I think we all might naturally defer to him in a vacuum. Once we get some concrete ideas, then it'd be ludicrous to not get his feedback.

Can everybody who's interested in a brainstorming session (I assume some are lurking) send me PM / email with their cell phone / email address / dates they're in SJ? Once I get the lay of the land, we'll see what we can do.

Dairus, how do you access the material you've put together at the NWFC? And are you planning any coaching training in the future? (and congratulations on getting married!)

Thanks! Currently the material isn't available online, but I'd be happy to share it with you in SJ. It consists of study guides (I wondered how NWFC fencers always had such a good fencing IQ, now I know!) and testing procedures for each class - Youth, Youth Competitive, Competitive. The knowledge of how to teach is still not written, but this is one place where teaching to the test is a pretty good idea.

Michael's really good (the NWFC business folks would say 'too good!') at accommodating coaches who want to hang around NWFC and learn -- we had 2-3 coaches studying here the week before the Portland NAC, and there are always coaches at the camps to learn about coaching, not necessarily fencing.

Also, Mike usually runs a group practice before each camp day for fencers with national points -- it's an extra training session in a line drill format. Anybody who's there studying to coach is allowed to participate. The truly daring can be on the plastron end.

So there is stuff going on here. What would be nice is to formalize that -- I know that for this year's Advanced Foil Camp, the plan is to go out each evening with all of the camp coaches (Mike, Buckie, Tomas Theuerkauff, Simon Abram, myself) and any guest coaches, talk about the day, what to do tomorrow, and just generally share information. I believe there's even an adult beverage line item in the budget.

We've also talked about doing shorter, long-weekend style coaches clinics. I'd love to see this happen at NWFC, purely for the reason that we could easily bring enough athletes in to run a training camp in conjunction with a coaching clinic. If there's demand for such a beast, it could happen.

Darius, wasn't Micheal's Master's thesis conclude that one of the things needed to improve American fencing was just this sort of approach?

We were actually talking about this independently of this thread yesterday. I'll see if I can get him to drag it up. I think this means I need to put together a bunch of material to bring with me to Nationals, ah well, there are 24 hours in a day, right?

darius

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Jason

.....
It doesn't seem like the USFCA, as an organization, has the gonads to put something like this together. The USFA, of course, has organizational Down's syndrome. That probably leaves the most realistic solution for starting the process as "do it yourself".
It might be worthwhile to use the USFCA testing system as well (though maybe not)....

For the "do it yourself" option to work, I think it would need to be a money-maker. Therefore, the course model would need to be designed as both an educational and business venture.

Just to give you some background on the USFCA approach from my perspective. There has always been a low number of Masters in the USFCA willing to train others...I don't know what causes this syndrom.

Much easier to sit on an evaluation board than teach...and take criticism for your technique...especially if it is out-of date.

Jason is right. This will need to be a money-maker. Which means student coaches will need to pay for training...or get their employer organizations (clubs, colleges) to pay for their training.

When I was coaching at the Air Force Academy, the academy paid for my CC registration out of the fencing budget.

The USFA CC is not a money-maker. They receive funding from the USOC/USFA and still need to charge a registration fee.

The USFCA has little money for training. The USFCA is like the USFA in that its operating funds come from membership dues. With only three hundred active members there is not much money to do more than print/mail four issues of Swordmaster, host/maintain the website, and host the annual conference. The test/examination fees basically cover the cost of the certification operation.

As I said previously, the NCAA has provided a grant for Women and Minority coaches development last year. It paid for the coaches clinic at Drew..which was a sell-out...(but it was free ha ha). Perhaps we can approach the NCAA for more help especially as the number of college clubs increase.

I think the key is a combination of grants and tuition fees to make this a profitable venture. If we are going to do this we shouldn't go broke.

[Allen Evans]

I'm more likely to be a consumer of this product than a producer, but I would be glad to help in any way I can. One o my biggest weaknesses as a coach is a lack of a firm grounding in the theory to practice of fencing pedagogy. Still, I think all of you (but Darius) know how to get in touch with me through email. I'll send that along. I'll be in San Jose from the 5th to the last day.

Don't underestimate the pricing of this product -- within reason. I have spent literally thousands, perhaps ten thousand dollars for travel and expenses and fees connected with improving my ability to coach. Access to this sort of information will improve my own coaching clinics and services, which has resale value for my club.

Allen

[Jason]

Because I'm setting up a new club, I'm going to be skipping San Jose. (By the way, anyone know a competent AND reasonably priced contractor in the NYC area, let me know )

Although the USFCA and Coaches College may not make money, many independent coaching courses do. I think it's a doable enterprise.

Let me know what comes from the SJ meeting.

[RITFencing]

Darius,

You know I'd love to be there, and I should be able to make it, though the third might work a little better for me.

I've been away from this thread for a few days, but let me clarify soemthing I said ebfore about the number of bad coaches being irrelevant to the high performance program: I was referring to the existing elite level fencers and the current batch of up and comers who, for the most part, are already with high level coaches. I am very passionate about developing the base level of coaching and fencing in the US, but I don't think that doing so will have a large immediate impact on our international performance.

In 10 or 20 years, however, having a stronger overall field and larger talent pool brought about by a strong coachign community will pay large dividends.

[RITFencing]

Just tossing out an idea for money making for any coaching training... since I believe that one of the best ways to learn is by doing, what about hosting camps for coaches and fencers, and have the fencers taught by trainee coaches? You can charge the coaches a bit if you need to, and you can also charge the fencers a fair price, AND you hopefully get a good environment for each to develop.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by MdA

As someone already mentioned in this thread. The certificate helps when applying for jobs ...especially at public institutions or colleges and universities.

It helped me get on the faculty at a local community college...of course my MS in an unrelated field also helped

In my case, my Prevot certificate was extremely helpful when I moved to Germany for three years. It helped me continue my Masters training from that point.

It helped me get space for my first private club (no charge) at a private school and start a class at a gymnastics center.

In today's litigious society, certification helps protect the coach.

Absolutely. Every six months, when I'm setting up the classes at the Rec Center I teach at, I trot out my Moniteur certificate, USFA and USFCA membership and USFA insurance certificate. Without those, I'd have a harder time getting the space.

My biggest thing is that after 4 years as a Moniteur, and a significant amount of ... shall we call it "hands on research" in how to train students in my own club, I'm ready to advance to the next level. By that I mean a course of study in some more advanced techniques and tactics, not a certificate. It would be nice though if the result of that more advanced study was a certificate that I could take to my employer to help justify a better salary...

[darius]

Just tossing out an idea for money making for any coaching training... since I believe that one of the best ways to learn is by doing, what about hosting camps for coaches and fencers, and have the fencers taught by trainee coaches?

There's some precedent for this at NWFC -- anybody who comes and visits can generally steal some time to watch what we do, and we'll generally grab them and have them help out.

But of course, if you want to monetize something, you've got to formalize it and organize it. Sometimes the most brilliant people aren't the best ones for those qualities.

So far, it looks like myself, Wendell, Sean, and Brad are exhibiting interest. With something that small, we should grab legal pads and go find a local restaurant to chat at.

darius

[MdA]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Just tossing out an idea for money making for any coaching training... since I believe that one of the best ways to learn is by doing, what about hosting camps for coaches and fencers, and have the fencers taught by trainee coaches? You can charge the coaches a bit if you need to, and you can also charge the fencers a fair price, AND you hopefully get a good environment for each to develop.

Originally Posted by oso97

Absolutely. Every six months, when I'm setting up the classes at the Rec Center I teach at, I trot out my Moniteur certificate, USFA and USFCA membership and USFA insurance certificate. Without those, I'd have a harder time getting the space.

My biggest thing is that after 4 years as a Moniteur, and a significant amount of ... shall we call it "hands on research" in how to train students in my own club, I'm ready to advance to the next level. By that I mean a course of study in some more advanced techniques and tactics, not a certificate. It would be nice though if the result of that more advanced study was a certificate that I could take to my employer to help justify a better salary...

Great ideas...we will start this at Alamo Fencing Academy on the weekend of September 16 in San Antonio.

[MdA]

Sorry. I meant weekend of Sept 5-7, 2008

[Jason]

Originally Posted by darius

So far, it looks like myself, Wendell, Sean, and Brad are exhibiting interest. With something that small, we should grab legal pads and go find a local restaurant to chat at.

Did anything come of this?

[MdA]

Darius set up a meeting on Friday night. I was unable to attend because of a family issue. I don't know if Sean or Brad were able to attend. We should push forward...perhaps have another discussion with the new USFCA officers at the Annual Conference on August 9, 2008 in Lambertville, NJ.

[Mr Epee]

Just a thought...

Let's assume for a moment that the perfect certification program was already in place. There is no bickering. Everyone is on the same page regarding terms, definitions, actions, and pedegogy... Ok?

Problem is the battle isn't over and the war isn't won.

What are these newly minted, perfectly certified coaches supposed to do now?

Where do they work?

Who pays them?

How do they feed themselves and their families?

Is there really a point to work towards professional diplomas without an existing demand for diploma'd workers?

Is the assumption that Supply creates Demand a good one, in this situation?

[RITFencing]

I was unable to be there, ditto for Brad, I believe... I'm also unable to afford flying out to Lambertville. Perhaps we can get a discussion going online, though? Or maybe at NAC A, if everyone will be there?

[RITFencing]

Mr. E, those are good questions to be asking, but I'm not sure that the assumption that a supply creates a demand is one being made. I'm thinking that to a greater or lesser extent, there is already demand for fencing coaches (kids keep walking into my club, at least.)

However, info on the business of fencing would be really, really good to put into any coaching educational system. I've seen a number of people who know a ton about fencing that were/are unable to run a very successful club from a business standpoint.

I also think that educational theory and psychology, especially child psych, should have a large part. Knowing what actions to teach, even if they are really, really good, doesn't make you able to impart the information effectively, and it certainly doesn't make you able to motivate your students.