USFA Election 2008 Debate Question #9: Veteran Fencing

[Peach]

What do you see as the future of veteran fencing? Do you have any suggestions for encouraging increased participation, strengthening our national competitions, improving the team selection process, communicating and facilitating Veteran Committee work, and supporting team participation in World Veterans? How do you plan to build on the strong 40-49 U.S. demographic which at present is not represented in the World Championships? What could be done better? What can the veterans do for the USFA? Where is the USFA lacking in its approach to veteran fencing? What are its strengths?

[IanSerotkin]

And how soon do you plan on implementing the sorely lacking 70-79, 80-89, 90-99, and 100-199 age groups?

But in all seriousness, Peach asks some excellent questions.

[KD5MDK]

Probably when they're capable of making up a pool? Maybe we should have a search agent that checks how many (Men, Women) cover an age category over 60 and add events as we reach X number of them.

Of course, not all eligable members would attend an event, so it's not actually practical, but it's an idea.

[KatyFencing]

The great thing is that we participate in a sport that can be picked up in the 40s and still can be tackled with great skill, (Ray Sexton).

In my club I have brought in approximately 15 males and 6 females in the over 40 age group in the last six months. All ask me when can they fence, and they want to fence in a competition in their club first before they travel.

In the SW section we now have a circuit that was formed by a veteran fencer, and this is probably the key to getting started for more competitive veterans. The veterans do not need much in the way of USFA resources, just more opportunities. The USFA needs to adopt policies that allow the local clubs to offer tournaments designed to entice these new fencers to join the USFA.

I am a vet fencer myself. The vets I speak with just need an opportunity.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by KatyFencing

The veterans do not need much in the way of USFA resources, just more opportunities. The USFA needs to adopt policies that allow the local clubs to offer tournaments designed to entice these new fencers to join the USFA.

I am a vet fencer myself. The vets I speak with just need an opportunity.

What kind of policies and opportunities? (I'll soon be joining the vet group, so I am interested in the answer.)

[T]

Originally Posted by Peach

What do you see as the future of veteran fencing? Do you have any suggestions for encouraging increased participation, strengthening our national competitions, improving the team selection process, communicating and facilitating Veteran Committee work, and supporting team participation in World Veterans? How do you plan to build on the strong 40-49 U.S. demographic which at present is not represented in the World Championships? What could be done better? What can the veterans do for the USFA? Where is the USFA lacking in its approach to veteran fencing? What are its strengths?

With reports that vet fencers constitute between 25% to 33% of the USFA membership, it is time, they got the respect they deserve -- instead of the leftovers. A common complaint that I hear from veterans about veteran events is that they often get the referees that are 'in-training' and they get relegated to flighted events even when their events are relatively small.

The Team selection process should start to reflect success at the international level and include international events. It hasn't been too long ago that world cup events started to count as part of the Team selection process for the senior and junior teams. If we are looking for Vet fencers that are competitive internationally, we should start to encourage them to fence internationally and rewarding them appropriately with points for Team selection. Europe has plenty of international events and the USFA could also host events with this purpose (or advertise our Vet NACs to this international market). The European championships has a 40-49 age group already and we need to 'encourage' the FIE to adopt this age group into the Vet World Championships in addition to the 70+ group.

With the growth in the US (and worldwide) of the over 40 demographic group, there is definitely potential for major sponsors or donations. Paul Levy was working on this angle which proposed that the donated money be ear-marked specifically to the Veterans group and it was thwarted by the Legal Counsel. The model was very well thought-out and had a great deal of promise. We need to re-examine the model and see how we can make it work.

The Pipeline program proposed by our slate could be used to develop veteran fencers as well as the youth/junior fencers. The programs would obviously have a slightly different focus and intensity but none-the-less, the model would still provide more quality bouts for veteran fencers -- which is the key to improving the level of fencing. By providing training opportunities at the regional level veteran fencers will become better fencers with even better results.

The success of our veterans to-date at the world championships has happened in spite of the USFA - not because of it. With that said, any program support would be more than what is provided now. I'm not necessarily talking about financial support but more importantly (and as August suggested) opportunity to improve. The USFA does not receive funding from the USOC for junior events yet they regularly fund cadets and juniors to world cup events and the world championships. A similar model should be examined for Veteran fencing with a potential to incorporate Veterans fencing into the weapons budgets and weapons programs in some capacity.

It seems that a good majority of Vet fencers started fencing later in life and that they are not 'old senior fencers' that once competed at high levels in the open divisions. Social activities for Veteran fencers at tournaments, NACs, and training camps are a big attraction. We should look for creative options for fencing events or training camps such as a cruise ship or countless other places that would make a good vacation spots.

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by T

With reports that vet fencers constitute between 25% to 33% of the USFA membership, it is time, they got the respect they deserve -- instead of the leftovers.

Which is why, I assume, you chose a "veteran fencer" rather than a "qualified candidate" as your slate's preference for treasurer.

Perhaps Ms. Pestotnik will feel more comfortable addressing this issue than the various threads pertaining to finances she has shied away from?

[sheck]

Originally Posted by T

With the growth in the US (and worldwide) of the over 40 demographic group, there is definitely potential for major sponsors or donations. Paul Levy was working on this angle which proposed that the donated money be ear-marked specifically to the Veterans group and it was thwarted by the Legal Counsel. The model was very well thought-out and had a great deal of promise. We need to re-examine the model and see how we can make it work.

I would like to hear more about this. Why can't donations or sponsor money be specifically ear marked for Vet fencing? Maybe it is time to start a independent foundation for Vet fencing.

BTW great post!

[CadetVet]

Originally Posted by sheck

I would like to hear more about this. Why can't donations or sponsor money be specifically ear marked for Vet fencing? Maybe it is time to start a independent foundation for Vet fencing.

BTW great post!

Maybe we can get Pfizer to do viagra ads for us - I can see it now...

A vet fencer zips up his jacket, pulls down his mask, and starts fencing... then he scores a touch, the other fencer salutes and pulls off their mask. behind the mask of the opponent is a beautiful brunette.

The voice over says:

"Always be ready for the next touche with Viagra"

[Peach]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I will look forward to hearing from the other slate on this topic.

I do have questions about a couple of aspects of your response, though, and would like to ask you to elaborate.

You say you favor offering points for international competition. I'm already stretched thin trying to afford Limoges, in a year when I have had to travel to two NACs and will have to travel to San Jose in order to guarantee a spot on the team, and honestly my first reaction to the idea of awarding points for international competition was dismay. Like the majority of my compatriots in veteran fencing, I'm a professional in the "sandwich" generation with an immense load of responsibilities. In many veteran events nationally we do not yet have enough competitors, partly (as a recent and very vociferous thread on this forum discussed) because of the difficulty, inconvenience, and expense of traveling to qualify for veteran competition. Although I've won one World Vets and placed 2nd in another, and intend to go to Limoges, last year I had to pass up Australia because it was so expensive and would cut into my job responsibilities, even though I was already a lock for the team. We vets aren't kids in school and we aren't early-career people who can put our lives on hold in order to compete. It seemed to me that some of your response was predicated on a parallel with the younger age groups. It's not the same and can't be treated the same.

While I do agree that veterans could be encouraged to fence more internationally, I would like to see a more detailed plan for getting us to fence nationally and regionally. And though I know many of my compatriots engage in competition partly for the social events, I have to confess it's not my main interest--and I'd have a really hard time with the idea of a cruise

I do strongly disagree with the assertion that veteran fencing has improved in spite of the USFA. Maybe you've been observing the second-most-favorite veteran sport, complaining? From my observations at international events, we are much better-supported than in most countries, to the point that we are envied by many. Although we do sometimes get referees in training, so do most of the other age groups, and we very often get some of the best. I have been privy to some conversations that indicate the USFA takes the refereeing of our point competitions very seriously indeed. It takes pride in our accomplishments, and while it would be lovely if somebody gave me money to travel I have to confess that I know senior World competition has to come first, and that the USFA is short on cash right now. Could we improve in the way veterans are treated? Sure. Have we improved considerably? Yes.

--D

[oiuyt]

The following (2-part post) is a composite response from the USFA Nominees group.

What do you see as the future of veteran fencing?

Given the current demographic trends in the US, other than youth, veteran fencing could easily be our largest growth sector if we reach out to our athletes and properly support such programs.

It’s also one of the areas where US Fencing has shown significant international success. While an increasing number of countries are starting to put significant emphasis on veteran’s fencing and more and more former champions are returning to competition, the US still has a first-mover advantage, which combined with cultural differences* position us well to remain as one of the world powers.

* The US puts a greater emphasis on continued participation in sports at both a recreational and competitive level in adults than most (all?) other countries. This plays to our advantage as a country when looking at athletic performance in veteran age categories.

Do you have any suggestions for encouraging increased participation, strengthening our national competitions, improving the team selection process, communicating and facilitating Veteran Committee work, and supporting team participation in World Veterans?

Breaking this apart into separate questions:

Do you have any suggestions for encouraging increased participation?

The first step is to give more opportunities, both for competition and to find and show other ways for veteran fencers to be involved. We need the experience of our veteran fencers not just on the strip but also elsewhere in our fencing community

Really the best resource to tap to encourage increased participation among veterans is the other veterans. Veteran fencers are very good at including the social aspects of the sport with the competitive. As a group our veterans are probably the most welcoming and receptive to newcomers and the most supportive of their adversaries and friendly rivals. Leveraging this peer influence and openness is one of the keys to expanding the number of veteran fencers and getting and keep involvement and participation levels high.

What plans do you have to strengthen our national competitions?

Increased strength can come from two, related directions. The first is getting more of the existing veteran fencers to come out to each tournament. The second is encouraging “retired” veteran fencers to pick up their weapons and return to the piste. Basically this comes down to the same answer as the previous question, although with the focus exclusively on competitive participation.

How do you expect to improve the team selection process?

We envision the design and management of the team selection process remaining as part of the purview of the Veterans Committee.

Do you have plans for improving communications and facilitating Veterans Committee work?

The Veterans Committee is one of the better committees with regards to communications. The committee under the recent leadership of Paul Levy and now Rinaldo Campana does a good job of holding meetings open to its constituency and routinely submits timely reports to the Board of Directors. The committee already has a website which is contains up-to-date information.

If there are areas of concern with regard to communications or ways in which the Committee feels assistance would or could be beneficial, of course we would support those efforts. Overall, however, this currently appears to be a strength, rather than a weakness.

[oiuyt]

Part 2.

How do you propose to support team participation in World Veterans?

Our goal, as soon as funds allow, would be to treat our Veteran National Team like our other National Teams. This includes support for international competition, but especially significantly improved support for the World Championships. Our veteran fencers have done an excellent job of representing the US and the USFA should support these efforts.

Realistically, there are some difficulties with this plan. As has been widely covered elsewhere, US Fencing is currently in a poor spot financially. Additionally, many funding sources don’t put anywhere near the same level of emphasis on veterans results as they do for senior, junior, and cadets. This is notably true with the USOC. On the other hand, veteran fencers themselves have historically shown both the ability and willingness to support the sport in general and veterans programs in particular. It is also quite possible that targeted sources of funding can be found with outside groups, organizations, or sponsors that are specifically interested in supporting our veteran athletes.

Of course support doesn’t just come in financial forms such as funding for referees, warm-ups, and potentially travel and cadre. One place where change can have an immediate impact is in the relative importance that the Association puts on the efforts and results of our veteran fencers. Just as we routinely and publicly celebrate the achievements of our cadet, junior, and senior athletes, we need to routinely and publicly celebrate those of our veterans.

This includes recognition on our website, press releases to the media, and inclusion in email blasts to the membership. We honor those who bring home international medals in the other age categories and we need to honor our veteran athletes with international success.

How do you plan to build on the strong 40-49 U.S. demographic which at present is not represented in the World Championships?

As mentioned, the 40-49 age group is not represented in the World Championships. This has led to lower participation and weaker competition domestically. It’s been widely observed that many of the top veteran-combined competitors are in the 50-59 category. Is this because the additional decade of experience more than compensates for the effects of aging? Of course not.

Currently there are limited incentives for top-level 40-49 competitors compared to the enticement of an opportunity to qualify for and participate in a World Championships. Unless and until that changes at the FIE level it will remain true here at home.

Are there creative ways of coming up with alternative inducements to encourage strong, experienced fencers in this age group to either return to competition or to start participating in veteran events? Absolutely.

We don’t know what form such encouragement might take. We are willing to commit to working to help find and implement potential solutions in that area. It might take the form of crowning a season-long NAC cup winner (a circuit winner over the course of a season) or something of that nature. It certainly includes recognition that our top-placing 40-49 veteran fencers have achieved a significant accomplishment.

We encourage people to provide input and suggestions to the Veterans Committee on how this might be accomplished and are receptive to whatever ideas may develop out of that process. Having a large number of strong, active athletes in the 40-49 age range should pay off in increased performances in the future when those athletes and others who have improved by competing against them represent us at the Worlds in the 50-59 and 60+ categories.

What could be done better?

Much of this has already been answered in the question about supporting team participation in World Veterans.

Right away we can at least do a much better job of recognizing the contribution of our veterans to fencing in the US, especially with regard not only their to international competitive success, but also in the myriad other ways in which veteran fencers have and continue to support US Fencing and its mission.

What can the veterans do for the USFA?

First, carry on doing what’s already being done. Continue to represent us domestically and abroad and act as ambassadors of the sport and the Association.

Second, continue the amazing patience that has been shown with the existing inequities. While our goal is to ameliorate them, due to the financial pressures that the Association is currently under this will take some time. We will count on veteran fencers to help US Fencing deal with and solve this problem with their knowledge, experience and expertise in the areas where we most need help.

Third, veteran fencers can continue to stay involved and participate in the non-competitive aspects of the sport. In addition to the contributions on the strip, we count on our veteran fencing community to become or stay involved with many different roles, both facilitating the conduct of our tournaments and with the administration of the organization. Veterans provide valuable input not only into matters directly relevant to veteran fencing, but to the sport as a whole.

Fourth, reach out to compatriots. Encourage them to get back on the strip. Whether experienced fencers who laid down their weapons decades ago or recent acquaintances who have just been introduced to the sport through the experiences that you can relate. Help introduce (or reintroduce) them to the world of fencing and the world of veteran fencing. Build the veteran community. Increase the numbers and participation.

Finally, remain an example to the generations of athletes that follow you. Show them that fencing is a valuable activity that can be pursued for a lifetime.

Where is the USFA lacking in its approach to veteran fencing?

The obvious answer, and one that’s been previously mentioned here, is in the support and recognition given to veteran fencing. Historically veteran fencing has been treated as a side issue of lesser importance. Both in terms of the resources dedicated to it and in the importance of the results.

There have also been issues with the relationship between the US veteran fencing community and the US Fencing leadership taken as a whole. Dating back to at least the 90’s, when veteran fencing was first taking hold internationally, this relationship could frequently be described as confrontational at best. Even when things are “good”, it has been common for there to be miscommunications, disputes, and disagreements in priorities and direction that have made it considerably less productive for everyone involved. There has been improvement in this area this decade, but remnants of past issues still remain.

What are its strengths?

We have at least equally obvious strengths in our a large, vibrant, and growing community of veteran fencers. US Fencing has been one of the leaders in international veteran fencing, along with a few other countries such as Great Britain and Japan.

We have the infrastructure to continue producing and supporting internationally-competitive athletes. We can leverage the resources and abilities in the greater US Fencing family to support the efforts of our veteran fencers and we can leverage the experience and commitment shown by our veterans to benefit the entire Association.

[wbowman]

Originally Posted by Peach

You say you favor offering points for international competition ... honestly my first reaction to the idea of awarding points for international competition was dismay.

I agree with Peach for pretty much the reasons she stated. I would love to compete in some international veterans' events (in fact I've been doing some lobbying to have fencing included again in the World Masters Games), but I don't think I'd want them to be a mandatory (or as-good-as-mandatory) part of the process.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

The following (2-part post) is a composite response from the USFA Nominees group.

Thanks for the detailed reply--

--And a rather knowledgeable reply it is, too--good to know you recognize the role the Veteran Committee plays and disclaim any necessity of taking over things we're already doing well. I guess I asked a trick question and you gave back the reply it deserved. I'm understandably suspicious of campaign rhetoric that implies a naive idea of the power leaders actually can wield.

I'm interested by the idea of a "NAC cup" winner in 40-49 veteran events, which wouldn't represent much in the way of expenditure but would be an incentive.

I agree that the relationship between US Fencing leadership and the US veteran fencing community has been contentious at times, despite the support the USFA has given us in developing our program (and you quite rightly note that Japan and Great Britain are also leaders in supporting veterans). I'm glad you acknowledge that. (I happen to know people on both sides of the divide are people of good will but less-than-copious patience with one another). Any specific suggestions for addressing this issue?

[fencerbill]

For one thing:

STOP PENALIZING THE FENCERS WHO WANT TO BOTH FENCE AND REFEREE/ARMOR AT NACS AND SN.

Stop this crap about get your own room if you want to do both.

[KD5MDK]

Is that a veterans issue? It affects everybody who competes as well, and that could be most of us.

[dcrocket]

Originally Posted by Peach

I'm interested by the idea of a "NAC cup" winner in 40-49 veteran events, which wouldn't represent much in the way of expenditure but would be an incentive.

This is a great idea. Being at the top of the 40's points list at the end of the season deserves some recognition.

[KD5MDK]

Are you going to skip over the 50+ who currently compete in the 40+ events, or restrict the events to 40-49 now?