USFA Election 2008 Debate Question #8: USFA back payments

[Capt. Slo-mo]

But they are bearing the burden along with the referees that haven't been paid. Whose fault is it? Is it Massik's? I suspect he's continuing to collect his salary every month. Why is his name at the top of the creditor list when he is on his way out AND he was in charge of $$ when it was overspent?

Is that a euphemism, or is there an actual "Creditor's List" somewhere with his name on it?

'cuz I was going to suggest that one of the interim revenue enhancement sources might be tying a bungee cord around his heels, hanging him from the ceiling and bouncing him up and down to collect any spare change that falls out.

Couple times a day should be about right.

[whtouche]

Next, there has been a number of individuals that wanted to hear from Sharol Pestotnik of her thoughts and her professional opinion of what she would propose to do to help the Association to gain stability with its finances. After all she is running for Treasurer.

Haven't you heard?

Ms. Pestotnik is a veteran fencer! That qualifies her to hold the position of treasurer. These fancy "ideas" or "qualifications" or "education above the high school level" are comparatively trivial.

[mdstasinos]

Haven't you heard?

Ms. Pestotnik is a veteran fencer! That qualifies her to hold the position of treasurer. These fancy "ideas" or "qualifications" or "education above the high school level" are comparatively trivial.

It would certainly seem so. I still think possible a small scribble to let us know that she is really interested in the job would be nice. All we seem to get is commentary from Tracy. It would also be nice to hear something from Bruno or Soren. But no, I am certain it will be Tracy speaking for them. Sharol, put to print your ideas and concerns. Just surprise us!
MD Stasinos
http://www.usfanominees.com

[T]

It would certainly seem so. I still think possible a small scribble to let us know that she is really interested in the job would be nice. All we seem to get is commentary from Tracy. It would also be nice to hear something from Bruno or Soren. But no, I am certain it will be Tracy speaking for them. Sharol, put to print your ideas and concerns. Just surprise us!
MD Stasinos
http://www.usfanominees.com

And we have heard so much from Kalle? If we follow your logic...

[T]

So...we throw Mr Massik out for this taking place under his watch, and explain how we transition to a new ED? You are not yet elected so you do not have the authority to do so. As you recall, you were there, he announced his resignation at the February BOD meeting. The BOD accepted to keep him for a transition until the new ED took position. Have you forgot this?

I remember this. What I didn't understand is why it went uncontested. As a matter of fact, his resignation was so soft, that most of us in the audience couldn't hear it.

So, you are suggesting that Kenneth Lay should still be running Enron in spite of his behavior just because someone thinks that no one else can do his job?

[Philistine]

And we have heard so much from Kalle? If we follow your logic...

I think it's a bit disconcerting that we haven't heard here from Kalle Weeks or Sharol Pestotnik. For nothing else, as a show of respect.

In that vein, kudos to T, oiuyt and Greg_D for posting on a number of substantive issues (vice presidental postings don't concern me as much, as their duties/responsibilites are pretty much going to be dictated by the President).

The million dollars the USFA is in the hole is really the largest issue facing the incoming officers (and the BOD). All of the proposals they have are going to have to take that into account--and I think the electorate deserves a detailed explanation of how the plans do take that into account.

For that matter, I think the membership also deserves a detailed explanation of how we got into a million dollar hole in the first place....

--Philistine

[T]

The applied theory of Knowledge Management suggests several things. People who work or volunteer for an organization do so for a variety of reasons. Some are truly altruistic and the intrinsic satisfaction from helping your fellow man (or woman) is motivation enough (and kudos to those individuals). However, that accounts for a VERY small percentage of the motivations behind human behavior. In reality, people volunteer or work for an organization with the intention of getting something in return whether it be a paycheck or political power (or a little of both). When an organization that doesn't pay a competitive market wage (such as most nonprofit organizations), employees will develop strategies that provide them with the motivations to do their job (since they could obviously make more money in a for-profit organization). As employees (in a capitalist society) we are often concerned about job security and we often behave in such a way that will hoard knowledge so that our importance is elevated (or at least we perceive it that way). As I said before, volunteers are not immune to this behavior as well. The biggest problem is that since they aren't paid at all, they hoard this information even more because it is a true source of power for their position.

This knowledge hoarding behavior is rampant in the USFA. (Certain) staff withhold information; the Exec Committee withholds information; the HPC withholds information; divisional and sectional officers withhold information. Are they protecting us? I doubt it. They are protecting their turf and political power or at least they are trying to control the backlash that would very likely ensue from informed and disgruntled members.

What is so interesting about this type of behavior among people who hoard the knowledge is that if they just leak a little bit of this knowledge out, people are so excited that they forget that 95% of the info is still missing -- safely tucked away until another time when it will be advantageous to release it.

The kind of response that people give when a little bit of knowledge is given out is something like this:

Wow! Greg, thanks for an excellent post! Keep up the good work.

While I think that the explanation that Greg provided was good - the basis for his plan is information that no one else has access to. So, of course gorgie101 and others are going to be grateful for the morsels being dished out.

In that vein, kudos to T, oiuyt and Greg_D for posting on a number of substantive issues (vice presidental postings don't concern me as much, as their duties/responsibilites are pretty much going to be dictated by the President).

thanks for the kudos

The million dollars the USFA is in the hole is really the largest issue facing the incoming officers (and the BOD). All of the proposals they have are going to have to take that into account--and I think the electorate deserves a detailed explanation of how the plans do take that into account.

For that matter, I think the membership also deserves a detailed explanation of how we got into a million dollar hole in the first place....

Hmmm... knowledge hoarding behavior? I wonder if the Budget & Finance committee were on the conference call with the Audit Committee (and their report) this past Saturday?

Total agreement on the 'largest issue facing the incoming officers' and absolutely, all proposals will need to take this into account. It is the 2000 pound gorilla in the room...

FYI, for those of you waiting... Sharol will be coming forward with a response to this question. We were hoping to see the audit report and to discuss it before a recommendation was made. Anyone can discuss principles and priorities in terms of prioritizing debts, etc. but right now, the only information that we have is information that Greg has shared. We asked Derek Cotton (the current Treasuer) for financial information weeks ago and none has been forthcoming (nor even an acknowledgement of the request).

[mdstasinos]

I remember this. What I didn't understand is why it went uncontested. As a matter of fact, his resignation was so soft, that most of us in the audience couldn't hear it.

So, you are suggesting that Kenneth Lay should still be running Enron in spite of his behavior just because someone thinks that no one else can do his job?

So, what we should believe from your reply is that we will not hear from Sharol at all dealing on the finances of our Association. What a shame.
In addition I was at the BOD meeting with you and sat further back than you. I heard every word clearly that was stated. I disagree strongly, most, if not everybody there heard what Mr. Massik stated. Your analogy, Eron, please....now the association is Enron and Mr. Massik is Kenneth Lay. How about you deal with todays reality. As of today, as was the same as yesterday your suggestions, recommendations, plans won't go anywhere until after the election and if you are elected. I did not suggest anything about keeping Mr. Massik until the transition, the EC and Board of Directors did this and I am not a current member of the BOD. You where there and for you to bring this up now and look all surprised and shocked is comical. You had this information in February. Why did you not start then as part of your platform to rid of him?
MD Stasinos
http://www.usfanominees.com

[Capt. Slo-mo]

What happens when people owed funds by the USFA begin to resort to the legal system for payment?

See the main forum: Korfanty vs USFA We're seeing one answer.

Question to Greg/T/Sharol-trussed-in-the-basement:

Did you know about this suit, and how should the USFA respond if others follow Korfanty's lead, and begin filing lawsuits to recover back payments?

[Jason]

And we have heard so much from Kalle? If we follow your logic...

I would really like to hear from Kalle, as well. I don't personally know her and what little I've seen of her in the context of this election has not made me feel comfortable voting for her.

The NC slate's "we all worked on these statements together" postings are nice, but I see no reason to vote by slate. Being president is arguably an important job--I need the person who wants that job to convince me she's the best, not her surrogates.

[mtarascio]

Tar Tar Printing Inc. v. United States Fencing Association
Ed Korfanty v. United States Fencing Association

Are there any other cases against the USFA?

[Greg_D]

Question to Greg/T/Sharol-trussed-in-the-basement:

Did you know about this suit, and how should the USFA respond if others follow Korfanty's lead, and begin filing lawsuits to recover back payments?

Didn't know about it. Will be asking questions.
As to the second question, I honestly don't know. This really ends up being something that I would have to speak to counsel about.

As it says in the thread, I hope that most of the people who are owed monies will understand that the USFA does intend to pay them and that they will give us the time to get our act together so that we can do so.

Greg

[oso97]

Interestingly enough, I just received this email:

Dear Tournament Officials:
The Executive Committee of the Board of Directors has recently approved a motion to offer a discounted life membership to those tournament officials who are owed reimbursements for the 07-08 season.

You are receiving this message because you are listed as a tournament official (referee, bout committee, armorer, tech, trainer) for the JO’s, or one or more NAC’s for the 2007-2008 season.

Please review the attached cover letter and application. If you would like to take advantage of this offer, please either send in your application by fax, email or mail, or reply to myself or Tana Isgar: tana.isgar@usfencing.org by May 31, 2008. Reimbursements through Summer Nationals can also be applied to this offer.

If you would not like to take advantage of this offer, your reimbursements will continue to be issued.

If you have any questions about the attached, please feel free to contact me.

Thank you for all that you do.

Best Regards,
Dana Brown

The details seem to be that you can apply the funds you are owed to a life membership (either your own or someone else's). Funds you are owed through Summer Nationals can be applied.

I'm mildly interested by this offer but want to see what others have to say. Greg? Your thoughts?

[KD5MDK]

I got the same offer. How would you apply funds through Summer Nationals if the balance is due July 1?

I'm amused that "Cover Letter.pdf" and "Life Reimbursement Application.pdf" have the opposite contents of their titles.

An additional complication for me is that I already have an SL-1 membership, and don't feel as inclined to abandoned the extra money I paid for that.

[Greg_D]

Knowledge Management 101
Lots of stuff...

I guess I need to respond to this one since it's essentially an attack on my character and motivations...

I actually agree with a number of points that Tracy makes in this post. There has been WAY too much hoarding of information in our organization and not nearly enough transparency. That has to change. My effort over the last year as a member of the Board of Directors was to change it. The fact that there is an Audit committee and a Budget committee is directly related to that effort.

My posts are an effort to continue that process. Do I have access to information that most people don't? Yes. Absolutely. However, I have worked over the last year to get that information. I haven't asked for it to be handed to me on a silver platter. Before I was a BOD member, I regularly attended the Board meetings at JO's and at Summer Nationals. I worked to get elected to the BOD from the Congress four years ago and have continued to do so every year since then. I asked questions about the financials during EVERY board meeting for 3 years to try to get a handle on the finances. When it became clear that it wasn't going to happen without further effort I, in consultation with a number of other people, put forth the proposals to create the two financial committees. I then asked to become a member of one of them and was elected as the representative from the BOD.

That said, stating that Tracy didn't have access to any of the information that I have is quite disingenous. Had she, or any other member of her team, attended Board meetings they could have gotten EVERY SINGLE FINANCIAL REPORT THAT I HAVE up through the JO's BOD meeting. If you or Sharol want them now, send me a fax number and I'll send you the last three or four (which is all I have right to hand). They will probably include my personal notes.

Since Tracy asked a direct question... No, the Budget committee was not on the Audit committee call.

Now, as to my motivations... I care about this sport. I spend a huge chunk of my free time doing it and have for quite a while. I get a lot satisfaction from being able to help. I like that I can use my education and experience in ways that help my fencing friends (of whom I have many) and to help the athletes who work so hard to get results. I feel a little bit of satisfaction when one of those fencers that I have known for years gets a really significant result. I like to think that I helped just a tiny amount. I will admit that I enjoy being considered an expert in a couple of areas of our sport and that people ask me for help and opinions. It's a nice compliment and makes me feel good.

What were Tracy's motivations again? For that matter, why don't we all state our motivations for running.

Oh... and one last thing on this topic. Tracy, is this the way that you and I are going to work together if you're elected President and I'm elected Treasurer? You've stated that you can work with anyone that does get elected. This doesn't seem like a good start to me. Does it to you?

Greg
(And yes, I'm pretty ticked off by Tracy's post.)

[Mr Epee]

Looks like someone needs to take a few deep breaths and crawl down off the cupboard.

I'm not sure what you read into Tracy's comment that elicited such a passionate response. I'm growing a little weary of these "I'M A PASSIONATE DEDICATED LONG-SUFFERING VOLUNTEER" posts ... across the board. They don't serve any real purpose.

Let's move past the myth of fencing altruism.

[T]

I guess I need to respond to this one since it's essentially an attack on my character and motivations...

I actually agree with a number of points that Tracy makes in this post. There has been WAY too much hoarding of information in our organization and not nearly enough transparency. That has to change. My effort over the last year as a member of the Board of Directors was to change it. The fact that there is an Audit committee and a Budget committee is directly related to that effort.

My posts are an effort to continue that process. Do I have access to information that most people don't? Yes. Absolutely. However, I have worked over the last year to get that information. I haven't asked for it to be handed to me on a silver platter.

I applaud your efforts to work for it. But that shouldn't be the way it is. Colorado law says that nonprofit orgs have to provide financial info when requested to do so.

That said, stating that Tracy didn't have access to any of the information that I have is quite disingenous. Had she, or any other member of her team, attended Board meetings they could have gotten EVERY SINGLE FINANCIAL REPORT THAT I HAVE up through the JO's BOD meeting.

I asked Derek Cotton and Michael Massik. I thought that would be sufficient to get the financial info. At the Feb BoD meeting, I asked for a copy of the budget but they were out of copies and were supposed to give me one later however, I had to catch a plane and couldn't hang around all day. That is when I emailed Massik about it with no reply (although I can see that he was probably busy fending off lawsuits).

I understand that you had to jump through hoops to get the financial information (probably from those very people who were engaging in knowledge hoarding behavior I described). As a matter of fact, the majority of my post was referring to other people that are currently involved in the situation. I just used gorgie101's exclamation as a standard response by people that are glad to get any information at all that is related to finances of the USFA.

And you can believe this (or not) if you want, that I really wasn't referring to you about the knowledge hoarding behavior. Perhaps I phrased it poorly and so for that, I apologize. It was the behavior of others that are in power positions now. What I was referring to is that jumping through hoops shouldn't be necessary and that people will be extremely excited and beholden when morsels of info are thrown their way.

While I will be glad to give you my fax number and everyone can fax me things if they want 210.767.0756, that won't provide the info to everyone else.

Since Tracy asked a direct question... No, the Budget committee was not on the Audit committee call.

That settles that question. Thanks. I suspect that perhaps Kalle and Ro were but I don't know that for sure.

Now, as to my motivations... I care about this sport. I spend a huge chunk of my free time doing it and have for quite a while. I get a lot satisfaction from being able to help.

So then perhaps you are one of those few minorities that I mentioned. But I suspect there is perhaps a (albeit tiny, of course) power rush you get from the power of the FOC.

What were Tracy's motivations again?

Complete dissatisfaction with the way the USFA treats the fencers and other USFA members; the Nomination Committee process and how the NC candidates waltz into office without having to explain their positions and discuss the issues; and the belief that the sport could be so much better if someone who knew something about fencing (the sport of fencing -- not the running of tournaments) and business was in the leadership role (I use the current administration as the model that I base this on). And like you, I spend all of my free time (and I confess, some of my work time) on this sport. I also spend all of my disposable income and some not so disposable income on the sport and like Capt slo-mo, I am owed more than the value of my car (although apparently not as much as Korfanty). As sad as it is, I now have to look at any reimbursement I get as being a present that a rich uncle leaves me when he dies. I certainly can't count on it to pay the bills.

Oh... and one last thing on this topic. Tracy, is this the way that you and I are going to work together if you're elected President and I'm elected Treasurer? You've stated that you can work with anyone that does get elected. This doesn't seem like a good start to me. Does it to you?

You can refer to my apology above.

[Mo]

Complete dissatisfaction with the way the USFA treats the fencers and other USFA members.
You can refer to my apology above.

This statement is extremely disingenuous. Nothing like condemning an entire organization.

The meet in Portland, one of the only NAC's I have been to this year was fabulous. Part of it was due to the LOC but a huge part was due to Christine Simmons and staff. They work year round and leave their families to make sure that the NAC meets are held in places that are accessable and cost efficient to as many fencers, even UNRATED fencers as possible.

Corrinne's replacement, Jeanna Mendoza, was brought in a brought up to speed carefully by the extra special Corrinne and the staff at the USFA office. They took care of a surprise vacancy in the staff and dealt with it in a hurry. Congrats to Corrinne on your new job. You were fabulous at your old job and we will miss you a lot.

Andrea, Bob L and other USFA personel have been working constantly to make sure that the people going to the Olympics have a place to stay. We got the announcement about that yesterday. I for one really appreciate that effort and it has been an extremely difficult job.

There has also been some financial relief in the form of PEA checks too that many of the fencers have been receiving.

There are business cycles. The US is in a recession and everyone is suffering. That is actually NOT the USFA's fault. We are all doing the best we can to get by. There is a staff in Colorado Springs working to get the organization in balance. Give them a bit of credit.

Lighten up T and appreciate the good things that fencing has done for you.

Aren't you just a bit thrilled by the power you have from your two daughters making world teams and you yourself being taken seriously due to their accomplishments?

You can refer to my apology above.

You really do need to apologize.
The Momster

[peet]

Interestingly enough, I just received this email:


The details seem to be that you can apply the funds you are owed to a life membership (either your own or someone else's). Funds you are owed through Summer Nationals can be applied.

I'm mildly interested by this offer but want to see what others have to say. Greg? Your thoughts?

Too bad that (as I read it) The offer is an exact dollar for dollar trade of reimbursements owed to us for credit towards lifetime membership. That benefits the organization, in that it doesn't have to outlay cash it doesn't have at the moment. However, it does not benefit us, the officials, in any way. All it does is give us an opportunity to spend the money on membership, instead of whatever we would have (rent?, food?, booze?).

The deal should have been something like for each $1 owed in reimbursements, we get $2 credit towards lifetime membership. Now that would have been a deal worth taking.

If you want people to take a deal, you have to give them incentive. More to the point, if you want to re-earn the goodwill of an abused group of people, they have to feel like you are giving them a gift, not the other way around!

I heard about this idea through the grapevine a few weeks ago, and it sounded great. Now I see it's just one more great idea the USFA has managed to screw up...


(sorry, I'm in cynical mode today maybe.... )

-p


[edit]
Ok, I re-read the letter. Looks like it offers a $200 discount. That's something at least.
Now I'm in the same "mildly interested" state as oso.

Sorry for the rant!
[/edit]

[epeemike81]

Perhaps I phrased it poorly and so for that, I apologize.
...
So then perhaps you are one of those few minorities that I mentioned. But I suspect there is perhaps a (albeit tiny, of course) power rush you get from the power of the FOC.
...
You can refer to my apology above.

During these discussions, you have repeatedly shown the duplicitous nature evident in the above post. You repeatedly talk about having nothing but respect for your opponents or how you can work with anybody who's elected, but then later (frequently in the same post) attack them as everything from incompetent to disingenuous and power hungry (all of which couldn't be further from the truth).

You can't have it both ways.

-m