Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

fence1848 · 05-15-2008, 12:53 PM

Does anyone know if the specific geographic borders of the divisions are spelled out anywhere? The back of the USFA membership form has a quick reference, and most of the borders are obvious (division=state). For example, Capitol division is clearly defined by the district and surrounding counties that it includes. However, I'm in Central Florida and according to the division listings, this consists of "Orlando and Tampa". Clearly this is overly vague because it also contains clubs in Daytona, Ft. Myers, etc. The neighboring divisions are just as vague, with Goldcoast Florida being listed as "Southern Florida" and Gateway Florida listed as "Northern Florida and Pan handle".

HDG · 05-15-2008, 01:19 PM

What city are you in?

fence1848 · 05-15-2008, 01:29 PM

Oh, I'm in the Tampa area, but there are some cities that are close to what might be a border: Naples is one. There is a club in Naples that is listed on the USFA web site as being in Central Florida, and I think that may be correct (it is close to Ft. Myers). However, the Central Florida web site has still not put that club up on their site. I was wondering if the webmaster of the CFL web site thought that Naples was part of Goldcoast instead of Central.

KD5MDK · 05-15-2008, 01:45 PM

The boundaries are usually spelled out in the Division Bylaws. That isn't to say they don't overlap, etc, and certainly isn't easy to tell when you're signing up for a new membership.

fencerbill · 05-15-2008, 03:35 PM

And in the boundary areas it can be a little vague. At times, the national office just goes along with the wishes of the individuals and/or clubs involved.

In the New England Division we see examples of that in the Springfield-Amherst-Northampton area. Some clubs within miles of each other are in the Connecticut Division while others are in the New England Division. While at least one not far away is in the Hudson-Berkshire Division.

And while Bucks County is in Pennsylvania, didn't the Bucks County Academy of Fencing move across the river to real estate in New Jersey while staying in the Philadelphia Division?

It is far from crystal clear.

oiuyt · 05-15-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

And while Bucks County is in Pennsylvania, didn't the Bucks County Academy of Fencing move across the river to real estate in New Jersey while staying in the Philadelphia Division?

When they moved BCAF changed to be an NJ-Div club. That hosts many Phil-Div events (including qualifiers).

Until a couple of years ago PA had a mess of boundaries, including both overlapping and non-incorporated territories (with clubs/fencers) which ended up defined as part of the National Division (VERY easy qualification to Nationals, among other things.). Now PA is split up on county lines and every county is a part of one, and only one, division.

-B

HDG · 05-15-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fence1848

Oh, I'm in the Tampa area, but there are some cities that are close to what might be a border: Naples is one. There is a club in Naples that is listed on the USFA web site as being in Central Florida, and I think that may be correct (it is close to Ft. Myers). However, the Central Florida web site has still not put that club up on their site. I was wondering if the webmaster of the CFL web site thought that Naples was part of Goldcoast instead of Central.

The Central Florida Division website has a map showing their boundaries; it places Naples in the Gold Coast Division, but they're yours, not ours (at least as far as USFA is concerned).

Salle de Napoli and the Florida Gulf Coast U. clubs both used to be on the CFL website; I don't know what happened. Given the large number of no-longer-existing clubs still listed, however, it's hardly surprising.

AndrewH · 05-15-2008, 05:45 PM

It really doesn't matter what division you choose, though. The most important consideration is where you will qualify for national events from. If one division's qualifiers are easier for you to get to, be a member of that division.

KD5MDK · 05-15-2008, 09:00 PM

However, officially you can only select the division you live in, the division your club is in, or the division you go to school in. In theory, that means the boundaries matter.

HDG · 05-29-2008, 12:27 PM

I hate to bring up an old thread, but a follow-on question has come up.

Can a club squarely within geographical boundaries of one division change its affiliation to another division when its nowhere near their desired division's borders?

Seems to me the answer is an obvious "no".

fencerbill · 05-29-2008, 12:35 PM

Why would they want to?

Unless they were unhappy with the Division they were in.

Sounds like a suitable subject for administration policy.

wbowman · 05-29-2008, 02:43 PM

There's some precedent both ways. When I was in the Kentucky Division, the clubs in the southern part of Indiana were allowed to join the KY Division. Their feeling was that the Indiana division was being dominated by the collegiate clubs in the northern part of the state. The powers-that-were in Indiana (said collegiate clubs) didn't object, so the USFA allowed it. (I have no idea what the situation is today).

Conversely, the club at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville also decided it wanted to join the KY Division -- since they were fencing mostly KY events -- but the Tennessee Division leadership objected, so it was NOT allowed.

Bear in mind that this all happened in the late 70's or early 80's, so procedures may be different now.

HDG · 05-29-2008, 05:20 PM

Got my answer from Dana B.

fencerbill · 05-30-2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDG

Got my answer from Dana B.

Don't tease, what is the answer?

HDG · 05-30-2008, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

Don't tease, what is the answer?

From Dana:

Quote:

The division a club is assigned to is determined by the club's physical
address. Unless the division boundaries are changed (which requires a
vote of Congress) or the club moves outside of the division, then a
change of division for the club would not be an option.

Rock · 05-30-2008, 01:55 AM

At the USFencing (USFA) website, select "Organizational Structure" -> "More Info" -> "Bylaws", and scroll to page 18.

This pretty clearly spells out who can fence in a Division.

A nice resource that could be added to the USFA website is a list of defined Division chartered territories (in original charter wording). This could be supplemented with a graphic map, too.

An example, since I am very old (some days), I learned in the 1960s that the Oregon Division charter included the entire state of Oregon, and also a radius of 50 miles from Portland into southwest Washington.

Based on the information available (that I've seen) one who moved to southwest Washington and saw "Western Washington Division" on a membership form might assume that the WWD included all of southwest Washington.

This information (about chartered territories) might already be on the website, but I haven't run across it.

If I can remember past tomorrow, I'll suggest to the National office that they add it. If I suggest it after the Summer Nationals and Olympics are over, I might even identify myself.

Rock

mfp · 05-30-2008, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock

An example, since I am very old (some days), I learned in the 1960s that the Oregon Division charter included the entire state of Oregon, and also a radius of 50 miles from Portland into southwest Washington.

According to the Oregon division bylaws as of June 2007, the division still includes 50 miles into Washington from Portland.

[It's interesting that the Oregon division bylaws run for 37 (!) pages and states officers are elected for two year terms among other things]

mrbiggs · 05-30-2008, 03:08 AM

I tried to make a map of the USFA divisions a few years ago, then gave up because it was a ton of work for some parts of the country. The discussion in that thread might be somewhat enlightening with regards to this thread, but it's largely out of date. (Much of it IIRC was about Pennsylvania and Western Mass, the first of which has been cleared up and the second seems to have improved somewhat recently).

Rock · 05-30-2008, 03:39 AM

[quote=mfp;694372]According to the Oregon division bylaws as of June 2007, the division still includes 50 miles into Washington from Portland.

True, but redundant (which is a GOOD thing). The original USFA (or to be precisely correct, the AFLA) charter is authoritative. The Oregon bylaws just include elements of the original AFLA/USFA charter.

Rock

dberke · 05-30-2008, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfp

According to the Oregon division bylaws as of June 2007, the division still includes 50 miles into Washington from Portland.

It's interesting to note that there's no mention of that in the Western Washington Division bylaws:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWD Bylaws, Article I, Section 3

Jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of the WWD extends over that portion of the State of Washington lying west of the Cascade Crest.

An amusing discrepancy, if you ask me!

Dan