Belgian Grip - Legal to Remove top Prong?

[geofmclean]

I broke my thumb skiing about ten years ago. One of my mementos is a knot on the joint at the base of my thumb.

This has caused a problem with pistol grips due to the top prong pressing on the knot. I have been experimenting with a grip, filing and cutting it down. Finally I cut the whole top top prong off and have found it is comfortable and still relatively secure to hold.

Will it fly at a competition or is the prong requred to secure the hand in one position?

[Purple Fencer]

You're fine....removing the prong doesn't confer a competitive advantage.

If a ref gives you grief, ask him to show you the rule....it ain't there.

An interesting modification. I've known people to remove the bottom prong (making it look like a mutanty Visconti) because it cramped their hand, but this is the first time I've heard of anyone removing the upper one.....understandable reason, tho.

[fencerbill]

I am afraid you are at the mercy of any referee you come across. Each one can make an independent evaluation of whether "the grip can be held in more than one way." Your only recourse is an appeal to the BC and/or armorer but the referee makes the determination. You could claim that Dan DeChaine blessed your use of the grip and it might not help.

I am one of those who cut off the bottom prong of a Belgian. Used it locally and at nationals with never a problem.

One thing that you can do that will enhance the likelihood of avoiding problems is to consider also shortening the extension to the back. You have to judge how that will affect your use. But the shorter you make the grip, the more preposterous the assertion that you could "cheat" by shifting your grip during the fencing.

You might be wise to keep one weapon with an unaltered grip, or French grip, to switch to if you run into a mule.

[Hauptman]

I may be wrong, but don't the rules only addresss adding something to a grip? I don't recall any issues with removing something, but of course that never stops a bad ref from just doing what they want anyway.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

I may be wrong, but don't the rules only addresss adding something to a grip? I don't recall any issues with removing something, but of course that never stops a bad ref from just doing what they want anyway.

The issue is the rule requiring ortho grips to fix your hand in one position; removing a prong may call that into question.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by geofmclean

Will it fly at a competition or is the prong requred to secure the hand in one position?

I think you're safe, unless your ref is especially dense... in which case you might want to appeal to the bout committee. In fact, I think you can cut off all of the prongs from it and still be legal.

.

[Barry Paul]

Sounds like you might have turned this handle into a Gardere handle. What ever that is!

As most/any orthopaedic handle can be held in different ways the rules regarding such handles are rubbish. All the referee needs to apply is the rule that any such handle must be held with the thumb not less than 20 mm from the guard.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

Sounds like you might have turned this handle into a Gardere handle. What ever that is!

No....the sticking point with the Gardere are the proings AND the French pommel....you know that, Barry....it's been argued enough on here.

[stillchris]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

No....the sticking point with the Gardere are the proings AND the French pommel....you know that, Barry....it's been argued enough on here.

Is this the Spanish grip? I used that grip when I was first starting, 60s-70s and really liked it. Came back later and is was kind of illegal, but maybe not, but maybe.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by stillchris

Is this the Spanish grip? I used that grip when I was first starting, 60s-70s and really liked it. Came back later and is was kind of illegal, but maybe not, but maybe.

That's always a point of contention....the spanish and spanish ofset are different grips, but always get confused....I THINK the offset is the legal one, but I'm not certain right now.

The upshiot is you can';t ban by name, you have to ban by characteristics.

[stillchris]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

That's always a point of contention....the spanish and spanish ofset are different grips, but always get confused....I THINK the offset is the legal one, but I'm not certain right now.

The upshiot is you can';t ban by name, you have to ban by characteristics.

thanks for the reply. I looked it up online and you are correct. Apparently the straight spanish has a pommel, like french, which makes it illegal, except, as I was once told, if some national coach wanted to make an issue then probably ok. The offset has no pommel.

Who knows?

[OROD]

The Spanish offset is basically a Belgian with the big prong at the bottom cut off. As far as I know it's perfectly legal.

.

[Barry Paul]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

No....the sticking point with the Gardere are the proings AND the French pommel....you know that, Barry....it's been argued enough on here.

If the gardere pommel was replaced by an internal nut like the carbon fibre grip. then the gardere handle becomes an orthopaedic grip, so the 20 mm thumb rule would apply?

Sorry but could not resist a bit of tail tweaking.

[Barry Paul]

On a more helpful note i think you can remove any protrusion you like, but what you cannot end up is a handle which you cannot hold with the thumb 20 mm from the pad. For example taking a pistol grip and adding 20 mm to the front section would create an illegal handle.

[erik_blank]

Originally Posted by Barry Paul

On a more helpful note i think you can remove any protrusion you like, but what you cannot end up is a handle which you cannot hold with the thumb 20 mm from the pad. For example taking a pistol grip and adding 20 mm to the front section would create an illegal handle.

20 mm to the front of an orthopedic handle? I can't imagine what that would do to the balance of said weapon.... Ouch!

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

20 mm to the front of an orthopedic handle? I can't imagine what that would do to the balance of said weapon.... Ouch!

That's only 2 centemeters.....you're thinking if you added 20 centimeters to the front end (around 8 inches)....THAT would be difficult!

[Wafath]

I have had spanish offsets ruled illegal by an FOC, and the armorer present declined to over-rule him. He later investigated and heard conflicting answers from armorers w/ national experience. I advised the fencer to train with a different grip.

I have heard three sets of interpretations of the rules on grips: (YMMV. None of this is official, just my cynical interpretation.)

- If it is not a french or italian grip, it is legal if it does not have a pommel, can not be reasonably posted, & the way the fencer holds it has the thumb less than 20 mm from the bell.

or

- All grips are legal until your ref tells you it isn't.

or

- Orthopedic grips (meeting the 20 mm rule) are legal if and only if the ref is familiar with it and has seen it in widespread use.

W

[geofmclean]

Thanks for the information. I was concerned that the freedom of movement that removing the prong allows would violate the rule that an "orthopedic" must fix the hand in one position.

Given that I have an "E" and go to two or three local competitions a year, I doubt that any competitive advantage I gained would threaten the balance of power in the fencing world, but I'd still like to stay within the rules.

As a side note, I see my question has generated a fair amount of dialogue. Grip issues seem to be a favorite discussion topic.

Thanks again.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Wafath

- If it is not a french or italian grip, it is legal if it does not have a pommel, can not be reasonably posted, & the way the fencer holds it has the thumb less than 20 mm from the bell.

Spanish Offset grips meet this requirement. It's basically a pistol grip, just slightly different from the normal ones we see.

.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by OROD

Spanish Offset grips meet this requirement. It's basically a pistol grip, just slightly different from the normal ones we see.

I think the problem is just the lack of familiarity.