05-13-2008, 10:43 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
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| 2 Questions
I have a couple questions I think you lot can answer for me. One has to deal with competition practices, the other with history.
I'm putting them into one thread because the first one should be easily and quickly answered, while the second may spark discussion.
1) Last weekend was a local competition. A young friend of mine competed in the Under-13 category. There were 15 U13 fencers during the round robin (they only ran one poule). However, before the D.E.s, the organizers added two more kids (who had been fencing Cadet) into the mix, and seeded them in places 1 and 2. These two fencers had not fenced in the poule, and were relatively fresh compared to the other 15 who had fenced 14 bouts each. This possibly contributed to my friend losing his second D.E. (he was fairly well seated going in), although he still tied for 3rd.
The adding of new fencers right before the direct eliminations, and seeding them in the top two spots is not something I ave ever heard of being done before.
Is it a normal (or at least not unknown) practice, and what are the guidelines if it is?
2) A history question to which I should no the answer but don't. Regarding the fact that fencers wear white (traditionally). Are there reasons for this tradition beyond the pre-electric method of scoring?
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05-13-2008, 10:57 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008 Location: Kaperna
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Monk  I have a couple questions I think you lot can answer for me. One has to deal with competition practices, the other with history.
I'm putting them into one thread because the first one should be easily and quickly answered, while the second may spark discussion.
1) Last weekend was a local competition. A young friend of mine competed in the Under-13 category. There were 15 U13 fencers during the round robin (they only ran one poule). However, before the D.E.s, the organizers added two more kids (who had been fencing Cadet) into the mix, and seeded them in places 1 and 2. These two fencers had not fenced in the poule, and were relatively fresh compared to the other 15 who had fenced 14 bouts each. This possibly contributed to my friend losing his second D.E. (he was fairly well seated going in), although he still tied for 3rd.
The adding of new fencers right before the direct eliminations, and seeding them in the top two spots is not something I ave ever heard of being done before.
Is it a normal (or at least not unknown) practice, and what are the guidelines if it is?
2) A history question to which I should no the answer but don't. Regarding the fact that fencers wear white (traditionally). Are there reasons for this tradition beyond the pre-electric method of scoring? |
1.The whole tourney sounds odd - perhaps it was not USFA?
I've heard of Y14 and not U13.
A pool of 15 is unheard of - perhaps it was done to give kids more bouting experience.
Pre DE byes are a common World Cup practice for top 16 seeds, as far as I know.
2.My understanding - white was worn in order to show touches in foil and epee.
Blades had small receptacles on the end, which held cotton-like swabs, which in turn were dipped into a quickly drying and disappearing ink.
At least that how it was explained to me by an oldtimer.
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05-13-2008, 10:59 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
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| Canadian tournament.
And yes, that's all I know of the white as well. I'm curious to know if there's more.
(Like, was white used because of the ink, or was ink used because uniforms were white?)
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05-13-2008, 11:17 PM
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#4 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Rabid Monk 2) A history question to which I should no the answer but don't. Regarding the fact that fencers wear white (traditionally). Are there reasons for this tradition beyond the pre-electric method of scoring? | Well, fencers didn't even always wear white: Fashions in Fencing article in a recent American Fencing magazine. | 
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05-13-2008, 11:33 PM
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#5 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Michigan
Posts: 94
| The reasoning that I have heard is thus: fencers wore white, and fenced with live weapons tipped with a burnt cork to A. prevent stabbing B. show where the touch landed, the black soot showing up on the white jacket.
Hence, the black jacket of masters and coaches being those people who have fenced for an extremely long time.
Whether this is true, I don't know, but it's certainly and explanation.
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05-14-2008, 12:12 AM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Cougar Country
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| To answer your question regarding the tournament.... as I suspect some are wondering if this is how we hold tournaments in Canada. This is wrong on so many levels....
First off... I can't believe they had one poule. With 13, there's usually 2.
2) Cadets are not allowed to fence in U13 events.
3) There is no reason to add extra fencers after the poules. What was the purpose of this? They had the minimum number for the event.
Your young friend has every right to be annoyed. If I was there, I would be complaining on behalf of my fencers.
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05-14-2008, 07:23 AM
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#7 | | Senior Member
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by tbryan Well, fencers didn't even always wear white: Fashions in Fencing article in a recent American Fencing magazine. | IIRC there was even a brief period in the early 20th century when AFLA rules regarding color switched back and forth between black and white on an annual basis. Fortunately this only lasted a few years. | |
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05-15-2008, 01:47 AM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007 Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| damn, i wish black would have won out.... would have been so cool! | |
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05-15-2008, 02:05 AM
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#9 | | Senior Member
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Fencergrl To answer your question regarding the tournament.... as I suspect some are wondering if this is how we hold tournaments in Canada. This is wrong on so many levels....
First off... I can't believe they had one poule. With 13, there's usually 2.
2) Cadets are not allowed to fence in U13 events.
3) There is no reason to add extra fencers after the poules. What was the purpose of this? They had the minimum number for the event.
Your young friend has every right to be annoyed. If I was there, I would be complaining on behalf of my fencers. |
I think it was under-13s fencing in Cadet, and then coming back, becuase the two events were run simultaneously. Or something. If that makes a difference. And the poule of 15 struck me as really large, too. That's a lot of fencing for young kids.
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05-15-2008, 09:20 AM
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#10 | | Have Blazer, Will Travel
Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Austin, TX
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon__fresh damn, i wish black would have won out.... would have been so cool! | Fencing - Doctors and Lawyers and Goths... | |
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05-15-2008, 09:38 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK Doctors and Lawyers and Goths... | Oh, my! | |
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05-15-2008, 04:16 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by KD5MDK Fencing - Doctors and Lawyers and Goths... | more like "Fencing - Doctors and Lawyers and NINJAS..."  | |
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05-15-2008, 04:44 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Cougar Country
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Monk I think it was under-13s fencing in Cadet, and then coming back, becuase the two events were run simultaneously. Or something. If that makes a difference. And the poule of 15 struck me as really large, too. That's a lot of fencing for young kids. | That makes slightly more sense. I am assuming there was only 2 cadets, so they turned the U13 into a cadet event. I suspect it wasn't a CFF event which explains the weirdness.
I am also assuming there was no junior event to toss the cadets into either. That's part of the problem with some tournaments. They want to be fair and allow everyone to fence, but ultimately it makes it unfair for others.
If the cadets were fencing elsewhere when the poules were going on, I'm surprised they got let into the DE's. They should have either had to fence the poules or leave them out.
I can't say I'm completely surprised. The younger the category, the more the lines get blurred. Parents and fencers are both inexperienced and it's a safe bet no one will complain if the organizers change things up. I've seen it before. Sometimes I complain, sometimes I let it go... depends on if I can see a better solution to what they are offering.
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If Joan of Arc could turn the tide of an entire war before her 18th. birthday, you can get out of bed.
~E. Jean Carroll
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05-15-2008, 04:51 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
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Originally Posted by Fencergrl I'm surprised they got let into the DE's. They should have either had to fence the poules or leave them out. |
That's my thinking, too, but I don't know what the rules are.
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05-15-2008, 05:00 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Cougar Country
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| I'm not an expert on rules, but I have a strong suspicion they broke one there and knew it. Organizers/ refs etc... will do that if they are reasonably sure they can get away with it. They're not necessarily evil or trying to improve the chances of their own fencer doing well, sometimes they're doing it because it's an easy solution for them. That's why knowing the rules (or someone at the event who does) helps.
If it's really important, I am connected enough to find out. PM me if you need a hand.
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If Joan of Arc could turn the tide of an entire war before her 18th. birthday, you can get out of bed.
~E. Jean Carroll
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw. ~Calvin & Hobbes | |
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05-15-2008, 05:12 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Cougar Country
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| Or if you really have time on your hands... search through the CFF website www.fencing.ca.
I suspect the USFA www.usfencing.org/usfa/ or British Fencing www.britishfencing.com website might have a copy of the rules that is easier to find however.
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