When to fleche?

[crquack]

Time for another basic question.

In my first club we went through a lot of practice learning how to fleche correctly. However, the explanation as to when to use fleche was scanty (and in retrospect I suspect wrong). In fact, except for one senior member hardly anyone ever fleched.

In my current club nobody fleches.

I watched some excellent fencers in another club and did not see them fleching either. I asked about this and was told in essence that "they fleche when the time is right".

Needless to say, I think I have fleched about three times in my life. I can do it (I think!) but I just do not know *when* to do it. Are there any suggestions when fleche is a sound tactical consideration? What about the actual fleche - do you hit in 4,6, in opposition, arm, head torso etc. etc.

BTW I fence right-handed epee.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by crquack

Time for another basic question.

In my first club we went through a lot of practice learning how to fleche correctly. However, the explanation as to when to use fleche was scanty (and in retrospect I suspect wrong). In fact, except for one senior member hardly anyone ever fleched.

In my current club nobody fleches.

I watched some excellent fencers in another club and did not see them fleching either. I asked about this and was told in essence that "they fleche when the time is right".

Needless to say, I think I have fleched about three times in my life. I can do it (I think!) but I just do not know *when* to do it. Are there any suggestions when fleche is a sound tactical consideration? What about the actual fleche - do you hit in 4,6, in opposition, arm, head torso etc. etc.

BTW I fence right-handed epee.

you're an newish epee fencer, so try this. its basic, it'll sharpen up your sense for fleches: make short actions with a lunge to the wrist/arm, and make long actions with a fleche to the body (not one combined action). make an effort to fence like this 100% of the time and you'll improve your fleches and your sense of when to use them.

you'll want to use the speed on the fleche to get in deeper as quickly as possible. use it in mutiple tempo actions, or single tempo actions where you use footwork to cut the distance short, but make sure you only do it when you have the jump on your opponent and/or control of the blade.

[seven6ty]

Ideally, you should use it at the time that your opponent is shifting their weight forward, into an advance. If you do it while they are retreating, the distance opens, and they will most likely be able to do another one or two retreats, and be out of distance completely, usually making it very easy to do a stop hit into your fleche.

The hand/parry position you are using doesn't really matter too much. If you do a feint into either their 4, or 6 line (no deeper than their elbow), and you get a fairly wide parry to match your feint, it should be very easy to quickly accelerate into a fleche, after performing a change in your line of engagement.

Really, a fleche can be used any time that a lunge would be too slow, or not cover quite enough distance.

[Allen Evans]

You can use a fleche in place of any attacking footwork, either an advance or a lunge, and direct it to any target, including the hand (dangerous, but possible) arm, chest, or thigh. You can do a fleche with or without control of the blade.

Fleching from a lunge is actually pretty difficult. I would recommend using an advance or bounce forward to attack the forward target, and -- depending on the reaction you get -- use the fleche to cover the remaining distance.

Like any piece of footwork, the fleche has to be practiced and integrated into your game. If you've fleched three times in your epee career, I would say that you should be prepared for most of your fleches to fail until you learn to prepare properly, make the correct target selection, and transition smoothly from your preparation into the attack.

Allen Evans

[foillion]

A personal favorite of mine in epee is to feint to toe and when they go for the stop-hit, raise the tip to the shoulder and finish with the fleche. It is possible to pick them up in 6 on the way in, but not necessary.

-P

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by crquack

"they fleche when the time is right".

Pretty much just this. You can talk for ever and ever about different situations, but in the end, it's just this.

[freerider258]

Originally Posted by foillion

A personal favorite of mine in epee is to feint to toe and when they go for the stop-hit, raise the tip to the shoulder and finish with the fleche. It is possible to pick them up in 6 on the way in, but not necessary.

-P

Thanks, this seems pretty helpful. I'll have to try it out.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by crquack

Time for another basic question.

In my first club we went through a lot of practice learning how to fleche correctly. However, the explanation as to when to use fleche was scanty (and in retrospect I suspect wrong). In fact, except for one senior member hardly anyone ever fleched.

In my current club nobody fleches.

I watched some excellent fencers in another club and did not see them fleching either. I asked about this and was told in essence that "they fleche when the time is right".

]Needless to say, I think I have fleched about three times in my life. I can do it (I think!) but I just do not know *when* to do it. Are there any suggestions when fleche is a sound tactical consideration? What about the actual fleche - do you hit in 4,6, in opposition, arm, head torso etc. etc.

BTW I fence right-handed epee.

It's actually very simple. The best times to fleche are:

When your opponent is stepping in.
When your opponent is stationary (on dead time).

The best distances to attack at fleche are around a lunge to steplunge*. The longer it takes to hit the less chance you have to be successful.

Important notes:
As you are new to fencing ignore people talking about specific tactical situations. These are only examples that will not help you to understand when, in general terms, you should perform a fleche.
You must have the guts to commit. The cardinal sin of the fleche (ha) is to second-guess yourself. If you are going to go - go.
Put your hand in the correct place first for whatever action you are doing en fleche (e.g. put it in the correct position if you are taking in 6; take the blade and put yours in the right place; then fleche).

Why not fleche when the other guy is retreating? Very simple. It increases your time to target giving him a chance to respond. Consider this risky in any circumstance.

* Fleche from lunge is an advanced move. Learn it later. Big steps make it easy for the other guy to hit you on your dead time. Long fleches increase your time to target etc...

[the ancient one]

Originally Posted by crquack

Needless to say, I think I have fleched about three times in my life. I can do it (I think!) but I just do not know *when* to do it. Are there any suggestions when fleche is a sound tactical consideration?

This is what free fencing is all about.
Just get out there and do it.
Get hit, loose lots of bouts and collect the feedback/experience you absolutely need to find the strategy that works for you.
It pays off in the long run.

[Shi no Tenshi]

Originally Posted by foillion

A personal favorite of mine in epee is to feint to toe and when they go for the stop-hit, raise the tip to the shoulder and finish with the fleche. It is possible to pick them up in 6 on the way in, but not necessary.

-P

Ah, I enjoy that too, slightly modified...I usually go lunge for knee, fleche to head.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I think the real problem here is that nobody in your club fleches.

It means that your club sucks.

Especially if its epee.

[crquack]

[fleche]

When your opponent is stepping in.
When your opponent is stationary (on dead time).

OK, I am a bit slow. In those situations I tend to lunge. Perhaps I should be asking "how is fleche different from a lunge in the tactical offensive sense (beyond the obvious: you do not recover from a fleche)" ?

The best distances to attack at fleche are around a lunge to steplunge*. The longer it takes to hit the less chance you have to be successful.

Should I take this to mean that fleche distance is *slightly* longer than a lunge?

Fleche from lunge is an advanced move.

I would not dream of it. Actually, just dreaming of it makes my right knee hurt...

Get hit, loose lots of bouts

I pretty much mastered that one...

collect the feedback/experience you absolutely need to find learn the strategy that works for you.
It pays off in the long run.

I fear that at my stage in life the run may not be all that long...and helpful advice often saves a lot of unnecessary effort and time wasted.

It means that your club sucks.

Really? Now you tell me...

[RITFencing]

Play with it, in practice and competition. See what targets work, what distances, what situations. See how you can set it up.

If you want a drill, here's one:

Fencer A and Fencer B are moving about. A's job is to fleche and hit, B's job is to draw the fleche attack and defeat it with either a stop hit, a parry riposte, whatever. Both fencers are now forced to find where fleching will work and will nto work with the other person, as well as when it LOOKS like a good time vs when it IS a good time.

[recycle]

maybe when your opponent is getting used to the fact that you step forward and lunge, a 2 step motion with the front foot ending in front. maybe a step fleche is like 1/2 motion quicker and should end while the front leg is pushing. then your opponent sometimes gets caught while waiting for your lunge. at least in foil it work fine for me when the distance is ok.

[Allen Evans]

The idea of a fleche being a "long distance" attack that replaces an advance and lunge as a simple attack is misguided. Out of distance is out of distance, and while the start of the fleche is a little easier for some fencers to hide, its (usual) poor execution coupled with a long distance to cover makes it just as easy to pick up before it reaches the target as anything else. If you're going to fleche that that far away, you're going to have to do a disengage at some point -- compounding the difficulty of doing an attack you're not comfortable with. At the start, the fleche should be done at lunge distance, or closer. For the beginner, don't fleche out of the lunge, but from an advance or balestra.

DFP is a little harsh, but on the right track. If you fence in an epee club, and no one in your club fleches, the skill level is probably not very high. Now that you've been introduced to F.net howver, you have a chance to raise that skill level by taking advice from people like RIT, who has given you a decent drill to work at with your club mates.

Allen Evans

[Gav]

Originally Posted by crquack

[fleche]

OK, I am a bit slow. In those situations I tend to lunge. Perhaps I should be asking "how is fleche different from a lunge in the tactical offensive sense (beyond the obvious: you do not recover from a fleche)" ?

Yes you are being slow. It should be apparent that the idea of swapping one for the other will deepen your game; making you less predictable and giving you a more varied tactical palette.

Should I take this to mean that fleche distance is *slightly* longer than a lunge?

No. If anything it's shorter or the same. It depends; but it shouldn't be longer. I'll reiterate a point I mentioned in passing.

What you want to be doing is reducing your "time to target".

In other words how quickly your can get your point to fix on your opponent. Doing this from far away isn't going to help. Doing this slowly isn't going to help.
Your fleche should be quick and delivered at a moment of your choosing when your oppnent is less likely to be able to react. So you want surprise on your side. These are the reasons why it's ideal to attack when he's coming at you or on dead time. You should be discussing this idea with your coach.

[TBean]

One of the things about committing to learning fleches is that many, many times you will not hit. Mostly because in the beginning you think about it too much. You think, "I should fleche," and your moment to go has probably already passed. But in thinking about it and going in the wrong time, you learn when is the right time and distance. You have to commit to practicing it until the action becomes a natural part of your game.

A lot of fencing involves your mammilian brain and understanding the fleche and its tactical applications comes from that side of your brain. However, some of best fleches are an instant reaction to a situation, totally lizard brain.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Now that you've been introduced to F.net howver, you have a chance to raise that skill level by taking advice from people like RIT, who has given you a decent drill to work at with your club mates.

Allen Evans

He'll receive my bill.

Thanks, Allen.

[Fencergrl]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

DFP is a little harsh, but on the right track. If you fence in an epee club, and no one in your club fleches, the skill level is probably not very high. Now that you've been introduced to F.net howver, you have a chance to raise that skill level by taking advice from people like RIT, who has given you a decent drill to work at with your club mates.

Some clubs in your area (if my memory serves me correctly on your location) allow drop-ins. You might want to consider doing this from time to time. There are some adult/ older fencers there as well. PM me if you're interested.