When to fleche?

[telkanuru]

It's most likely because you have a tendancy to direct your momentum up when you fleche. A lower stance will always be better for explosive movement, simply because your muscles are already prepped.

Also, it is a mistake to say "you can't recover from a fleche". If your opponent retreats at a high rate of speed, continuing to run at him/her is unadvised. Even better, a very quick fake-fleche can give you lots of good openings.

My personal favorite sequence is short attack to hand, lunge to leg, bind 6-fleche to chest.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

What about body position as an indicator for fleche versus lunge?

At times, for various tactical reasons, I might fence from a deep on-guarde position and other times I will stand more upright. When down low a lunge makes more sense for me, and when upright the fleche works better; both for mechanical reasons.

Does anyone else find this tendency?

Not sure I follow you.

You are aiming to store as much energy as you can in your legs before you fleche. Imagine a spring. Your stance should also be comfortable and balanced. The important thing, it seems to me (though I admit I may be wrong), is how you transfer your weight before you go.
So, from a good en guarde, you should be able to either fleche or lunge - without having to stand upright - as the situation demands.
I am not a fan of standing upright in the middle of a fight - unless you are certain you can get away with it for some reason.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by Gav

Not sure I follow you.

You are aiming to store as much energy as you can in your legs before you fleche. Imagine a spring. Your stance should also be comfortable and balanced. The important thing, it seems to me (though I admit I may be wrong), is how you transfer your weight before you go.
So, from a good en guarde, you should be able to either fleche or lunge - without having to stand upright - as the situation demands.
I am not a fan of standing upright in the middle of a fight - unless you are certain you can get away with it for some reason.

So you're saying that your legs are always at the same tension load? That you always sit in your en-guarde at the same depth? I find that depending on the opponent, and the distance and tempo involved, I might find a more upright position more useful. A simple example might be if my opponent is very good at toe touches I might need to be slightly more upright to remove that forward target a bit. Or for those of us being a bit older, Imight be a bit more upright to conserve energy and stress on the legs when necessary.

Aside from that consideration, to lunge you are launching off the rear leg which in a deep en-guarde has more load ready to go. A fleche launches off the front leg and requires shifting your weight over that leg which is mechanically easier from an upright position.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

A fleche launches off the front leg and requires shifting your weight over that leg which is mechanically easier from an upright position.

No. A fleche launches over the front leg - all the impetus is still coming from the back leg. Lunge without moving your front foot and you are performing a fleche, one that should be much less telegraphed.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by keith

No. A fleche launches over the front leg - all the impetus is still coming from the back leg. Lunge without moving your front foot and you are performing a fleche, one that should be much less telegraphed.

Really? You don't use your front leg to propel you at all in a fleche? It seems you wouldn't cover much distance that way. If it's just a lunge over your front foot then why not just lunge?

[keith]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

Really? You don't use your front leg to propel you at all in a fleche?

Well not entirely You do use the front leg but only after your weight has passed over the front leg, it is like any other action one that happens in multiple steps. If you do not push your weight far enough forward (using the back leg to push you hips over, then infront of you front foot - the extension of your front leg pushes you up not forward. That is how people spot the fleche - the head/body moves up then forward.

Originally Posted by Hauptman

It seems you wouldn't cover much distance that way. If it's just a lunge over your front foot then why not just lunge?

Three things -

First see AE's observations above on the right distance to fleche.

Second. The fleche is the most dynamic action in fencing - very few people do it really well reliably. You have to really work on stretching out and reaching for the target, if you have a swimming pool you can use it to practice this reaching out aspect. You then need to work on not falling on your face in the Salle, the secret of a good fleche is to throw your head at the floor and miss.

Third. What is the first gimme of an attack you are taught to spot? The movement of the front foot. In a fleche the front foot does not move, you body does not move up - your point is projected directly towards your opponents target. Done well you will have stolen time on your opponent, they will see your attack late.

[telkanuru]

The major force behind a fleche comes from your back foot swinging forward. If it isn't, you're doing it wrong.

[Hauptman]

You learn something new everyday! I had never heard this definition of a fleche before so I did a bit of searching for laughs.

Searching the net I found a number of descriptions: most talk of pushing off with the leading foot, one talked of using the back leg as you describe, and another talked of pushing off with both legs!!

Go figure! :P

[freerider258]

Originally Posted by keith

Well not entirely You do use the front leg but only after your weight has passed over the front leg, it is like any other action one that happens in multiple steps. If you do not push your weight far enough forward (using the back leg to push you hips over, then infront of you front foot - the extension of your front leg pushes you up not forward. That is how people spot the fleche - the head/body moves up then forward.

.

You use your front leg to propel yourself forward after your weight is in front of it, but you still use it for the main balance point for your entire body. It reacts to your initial move but curling up to the ball of your foot ready to release the energy. Your front foot is not what helps you go, it's the factor that drives the fleche in the given direction and distance, compiling your energy into a smooth movement. Think of it as a rowing stoke.

[Allen Evans]

I was actually discussing the fleche with another coach last weekend, and he casually mentioned six different ways to fleche depending on the preparatory footwork. I came up with what I thought were five of the six, only to find that of my five, there were four he hadn't seen, so now we were at ten. In the next twenty minutes, we came up with three or four more, though most of those were only slight variations.

That's a lot of ways to fleche.

All the ones we thought of, however, involved loading, or moving the weight through, the front leg, and using the front leg to start the initial push. One of the methods got significant use from the swing of the back leg, but I don't feel that the run of the mill fleche (?) should last long enough to get much momentum contribution from the swing. The fleche should score closer to its start than its end.

Allen Evans

[crquack]

This is getting better and better. Now I feel like curling up in a fetal position
Seriously, though, tonight I tried a few things recommended here and some were even successful.

I had the luxury to study the movement in the mirror slowly before the session started and realized that I was telegraphing it by twitching the front foot.

The best moment was when I drove the opponent down the piste at the point of my sword and into the far wall thinking "the light surely must come on soon". It did not and he got the touch somewhere along the way. I shall take the point apart tomorrow...

One question though: Starting a committed fleche when the opponent starts forward himself seems to lead to an almighty impact. I seem to remember some threads where this was frowned upon. Is there a point of etiquette here?

Anyway, I would like to thank all those who offered constructive and helpful advice.

[AdamH]

Originally Posted by crquack

One question though: Starting a committed fleche when the opponent starts forward himself seems to lead to an almighty impact. I seem to remember some threads where this was frowned upon. Is there a point of etiquette here?

If your opponent at a tournament whinges, ask politely if they are ok, so sorry and whatnot. Are you wearing a plastron?

At the club, probably best to check if your opponent minds getting it rammed up them. Depends on how hard is too hard but you should have some idea of distance, if the opponent steels themself into the collapsing distance more after you counterattack and you lock out their point, all in that moment then fair's fair.

[telkanuru]

Tempo-halving attacks are part of the game. In fact, they're like half of what I do. They will almost always hurt, especially in epee. People should deal.

BTW, your fleche should *hit* your opponent at about the time your feet cross. If you're "driving him down the strip", you did it wrong. Also, if your opponent is picking up things you telegraph with your feet, that's just plain... I don't even know. Feet really aren't even in your field of vision. The shoulders telegraph the most, and why do you need to look? The toe is always below the bell guard.

[TBean]

Originally Posted by crquack

One question though: Starting a committed fleche when the opponent starts forward himself seems to lead to an almighty impact. I seem to remember some threads where this was frowned upon. Is there a point of etiquette here?

While a fleche attack does have more force, if the person executing it has a relaxed shoulder the hit is not that bad. If, however, you tense your arm and shoulder during the fleche that sucks a whole lot more. Try not to do that.

I suggest, if you are concerned about how much force your hits have during this development phase of your fleche, try spreading the love around and think about relaxing your shoulder. Don't try five fleches on one opponent. Everyone expects a hard hit once in awhile - it is the nature of the sport. Acknowledge when you have hit someone too hard and most people will shake it off and move on.

[keith]

Originally Posted by freerider258

You use your front leg to propel yourself forward after your weight is in front of it, but you still use it for the main balance point for your entire body. It reacts to your initial move but curling up to the ball of your foot ready to release the energy. Your front foot is not what helps you go, it's the factor that drives the fleche in the given direction and distance, compiling your energy into a smooth movement.

The bit in bold is the key - IMHO. While I can't beat AE's twenty different ways to fleche, I would propose that if the fleche doesn't start well it won't end well

I don't think we are disagreeing over technique, just the verbal description of a complex physical action.

Originally Posted by freerider258

Think of it as a rowing stoke.

No. No. It's like casting a dry fly.

[keith]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Also, if your opponent is picking up things you telegraph with your feet, that's just plain... I don't even know. Feet really aren't even in your field of vision.

They must love you in DivI.

I'm just jealous of course.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I was actually discussing the fleche with another coach last weekend, and he casually mentioned six different ways to fleche depending on the preparatory footwork. I came up with what I thought were five of the six, only to find that of my five, there were four he hadn't seen, so now we were at ten. In the next twenty minutes, we came up with three or four more, though most of those were only slight variations.

That's a lot of ways to fleche.

All the ones we thought of, however, involved loading, or moving the weight through, the front leg, and using the front leg to start the initial push. One of the methods got significant use from the swing of the back leg, but I don't feel that the run of the mill fleche (?) should last long enough to get much momentum contribution from the swing. The fleche should score closer to its start than its end.

Allen Evans

You really got my attention with that post, Allen.

I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between those 20 different fleche actions. Could you give a run down of the most significant features? Or at least the most common styles?

[freerider258]

Originally Posted by keith

I don't think we are disagreeing over technique, just the verbal description of a complex physical action.

Yeah.

Originally Posted by keith

No. No. It's like casting a dry fly.

I'd guess you have never done crew before. It's the same concept.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between those 20 different fleche actions. Could you give a run down of the most significant features? Or at least the most common styles?

Most of the differences are very minor, but you can split the ways to fleche into two groups, depending on whether the front foot stays in place, or kicks back slightly to load the front leg. For instance, in the fleche from the lunge, one way to ease the transition is to kick the front foot back to load the weight on the ball of the foot and transition from this*. Someone with more powerful quads can simply transition through the lunge by flexing the front knee after landing, or using the momentum of the lunge to roll through into the fleche.

Other differences are subtle, difficult to illustrate with text, and are probably important only to two coaches with an hour or two of time on their hands.

AE

*Note that this results in a knee position which puts a great deal of stress on the joint. The transition in the fleche must occur immediately