When to fleche?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by crquack

To clarify:
1) Opponent still. I tee off with a fleche. I hit him in the middle of the chest, blade bent and all, just as he starts back-pedalling. No light. He is backpedalling, I am chasing with the blade still firmly attached to his chest. No light for a few yards. Then *his* comes on. Then he hits the wall. Hence the need for point inspection...

2) I do not know what may opponent sees. In the mirror I was clearly lifting the front foot before starting the fleche. It was almost as if I was starting a lunge and changing my mind. Aware of it, I was able to correct it.

For 1), practice stopping. Chasing like that is 99% of the time not going to be your touch. For 2), you're just weird

[catwood1]

On a separate note, when is the best time to start a fleche in foil?

The obvious answer is right as your opponent is starting an advance, but with refereeing being so "foreword motion happy" if you opponent simply lunges it could likely get called attack counter against the fleche. Other than using a beat, what else should / could be done?

[telkanuru]

A fleche can be used in any situation an advance-lunge can, regardless of weapon.The point of the fleche isn't the distance, it's the tempo.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by catwood1

On a separate note, when is the best time to start a fleche in foil?

On offense, when you can hit your opponent before he can parry or counterattack.

On defense, when you can hit your opponent before he can parry, counterattack, or hit you.

Originally Posted by catwood1

The obvious answer is right as your opponent is starting an advance, but with refereeing being so "foreword motion happy" if you opponent simply lunges it could likely get called attack counter against the fleche. Other than using a beat, what else should / could be done?

I'll fleche in the way you're describing occasionally, usually when my opponent always does a slow advance with search for blade sort of action. I only fleche, rather than lunging, if I need a bit of extra distance or speed. It's supposed to end in one light for me, while my opponent misses because he was searching.

I actually get it called simultaneous fairly often even if my opponent gets a light on, but then I also start fairly far away, and usually my opponent is either slowly advancing, looking for the blade, or doing some combination of the two. It's a rare action for me and one that I'd expect to get called on by a good enough ref.

So either time it really really well against an opponent who prepares a lot, find a bad ref, or get RoW the hard way.

[Allen Evans]

The fleche is not an answer to a particular problem: "plug in fleche here. Apply as necessary". The fleche is simply another way of delivering the attack, of covering the final distance to the target. That attack can be in preparation, with preparation, simple, compound, indirect, as a riposte, or even as a part of a remise.

Of the top of my head, I can think of only one instance* where I couldn't substitute making a lunge with making a fleche**.


AE

*making an attack in saber.

**I'm sure someone, however, will come up with a second.

[Timberwolf_CY]

While I can't give any good advice about performing the fleche per se, I can tell you when it is most effective on me.

When one of my friends and I fence epee (been a long time, but I remember vividly as the action was so good for my opponent), he always fleched in one of two instances: either 1) when I was in "dead" time as others have said, usually when I was thinking about what to do, and so was not able to mentally react to an action because I was preoccupied (usually only a split second, but my friend could see that split second of dead time, and that's what counts: this (I would assume) would take keen observation and experience; 2) when I was in preparation to obviously, ie., I take to long to perform a disengage, attack with a bent arm, etc.

As far as his technique, I don't personally pay enough attention to the feet, I focus more on the blade and, I guess, "obvious" target area, but hence I can tell you what my friend's blade was doing: something besides going straight. He always, EVERY TIME, used some kind of blade work. I mean, when he got me with a fleche, I always saw it coming and would move to parry, but out of the perhaps dozen times he's fleched me, I only stopped it perhaps once: he was either disengaging around my parry, which from previous observation and fencing he knew was coming, or he bound my blade as he fleched, thus making my possible defense moot.

That's another thing: once he mastered the fleche, he used it sparingly. So, though I may have said to myself when he started it, "Here comes the fleche," I never knew it was coming, there was no telegraph or anything, it was complete surprise. So I would say, as with almost every fencing action, once you get the fleche down, do as others have said and "wait for the right time" and use it sparingly. The fleche is a big action, however fast: if you see it coming, can predict it, etc., you can easily stop it: it is when it is properly executed (again as with virtually everything fencing): with correct timing, distance, and technique, is when it is, for lack of a better word, lethal.

Not sure out much that helps, but you were saying you didn't know what your opponent sees; I thought maybe the perspective of the receiver might help you some.

[Medinilla]

I find fleching, an essential part of fencing, now, i sometimes see people overusing it, (in a regional competition i saw i young russian boy, that scored around seven points on raw using straight fleche, the level of the opponent wasnt any good obviously), also there are, other fencers that underuse it, or dont use it at all.
I think the correct way to go with the fleche is, a balanced one, in my case, i train it a lot, and i try to practice it during my sparrings in various situations, and distances, afterwards i try to take note of what made my fleches succesfull or failures. BUT in competition is a different story, in competition, i very rarely use fleches, i sort of become a bit conservative, but when i use them, i make sure that my timing is as perfect as i can make it.

[sionnach]

Originally Posted by Medinilla

i sometimes see people overusing it, (in a regional competition i saw i young russian boy, that scored around seven points on raw using straight fleche, the level of the opponent wasnt any good obviously)

It's not overusing if you're getting points off it everytime. It's only overuse if it's no longer effective

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by sionnach

It's not overusing if you're getting points off it everytime. It's only overuse if it's no longer effective

Yup... I've won an epee bout with arorund 9 or more fleches. probably 7 1 lights, and 2 doubles...

overusing it?

[Shi no Tenshi]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Most of the differences are very minor, but you can split the ways to fleche into two groups, depending on whether the front foot stays in place, or kicks back slightly to load the front leg. For instance, in the fleche from the lunge, one way to ease the transition is to kick the front foot back to load the weight on the ball of the foot and transition from this*. Someone with more powerful quads can simply transition through the lunge by flexing the front knee after landing, or using the momentum of the lunge to roll through into the fleche.

Other differences are subtle, difficult to illustrate with text, and are probably important only to two coaches with an hour or two of time on their hands.

AE

*Note that this results in a knee position which puts a great deal of stress on the joint. The transition in the fleche must occur immediately

I've personally had the best luck with a lunge-fleche by throwing my hips forward. By this, I mean that from my lunge, I flick the left side of my hip forward, which gives me all the start energy I need to get where I'm going. It also tends to conserve momentum for me if I use it rapidly; I am a 290-300 pound man, I need to worry about my momentum every time I attack.

[Medinilla]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Yup... I've won an epee bout with arorund 9 or more fleches. probably 7 1 lights, and 2 doubles...

overusing it?

Obviously not , but can you do that every bout against better fencers?

[keith]

Since no one else was willing to take on the challenge;

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Of the top of my head, I can think of only one instance* where I couldn't substitute making a lunge with making a fleche**.

The second would be if you fleche like this;

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Most of the differences are very minor, but you can split the ways to fleche into two groups, depending on whether the front foot stays in place, or kicks back slightly to load the front leg.

when your toe is on the end line.

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by Medinilla

Obviously not , but can you do that every bout against better fencers?

Oh of course not . I just mean to show that using something alot isn't by default overusing it. When it stops working is when I'l stop using it.

And in regards to times when you can't substitute a fleche for a lunge. In foil, if you're trying to make a 2nd intention parry riposte, a lunge will usually be more effective than a fleche.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by catwood1

And in regards to times when you can't substitute a fleche for a lunge. In foil, if you're trying to make a 2nd intention parry riposte, a lunge will usually be more effective than a fleche.

Why?

AE

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Why?

AE

Because by the time your opponent has parried, started their riposte, then a counter parry is almost impossible because you are likely either way to close, or more likely already passed. Specifically, parries that take longer (ie circle 6) will be far more difficult to do as a 2nd intention from a fleche. You could possibly get away with it with parry 4.

Obviously, you could do a very slow fleche, but I mean this with a normal quick fleche.

When you fleche, you are often guaranteeing that the phrase will end within 1 or 2 tempos because either somebody gets hit, or there is a pass. A 2nd intention parry riposte takes 3 tempos.

[telkanuru]

I know it may seem like a minor point, but it would really be proper to say you can use a fleche in any place you would use an advance-lunge, since any given action is made to work with that distance.

IMHO it is *very* bad practice to think about setting up your distance and lunging, since this will result in you being within striking distance without really beginning your action.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by catwood1

A 2nd intention parry riposte takes 3 tempos.

I could be pedantic and ask whether you mean blade tempo or foot tempos, but I'll assume foot tempos. Which must mean -- by definition -- that I can set up a second intention parry riposte by starting with a false attack using an advance or lunge, and fleche out of either to score with my final riposte, correct? Isn't that using a fleche as part of a second intention action?

And I think that's the simplest answer...if I make an attack with the intention of making an immediate remise against my opponent who has a big or held parry, isn't that also second intention (albeit in two tempos which would be contrary to your definition)?

I think the world of second intention is bigger than you know.

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I know it may seem like a minor point, but it would really be proper to say you can use a fleche in any place you would use an advance-lunge, since any given action is made to work with that distance.

You can't fleche at advance distance? Or lunge distance? Only advance lunge distance? Hmmm...

Allen Evans

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I could be pedantic and ask whether you mean blade tempo or foot tempos, but I'll assume foot tempos. Which must mean -- by definition -- that I can set up a second intention parry riposte by starting with a false attack using an advance or lunge, and fleche out of either to score with my final riposte, correct? Isn't that using a fleche as part of a second intention action?

And I think that's the simplest answer...if I make an attack with the intention of making an immediate remise against my opponent who has a big or held parry, isn't that also second intention (albeit in two tempos which would be contrary to your definition)?

I think the world of second intention is bigger than you know.

Allen Evans

You're right in that I wasn't thinking about it in all of those ways. While the quick remise definitely would count as a second intention, I was referring specifically to a 2nd intention parry riposte. And while you can use a fleche as a part of that first scenario, you can't use it in lieu of the initial lunge.

Either way, its a pretty pointless argument. Fleches have their strengths and weaknesses over lunges and can often be interchanged to slightly change the effect on the action.