USFA Election 2008 Debate Question #6: FIE Politics

[EpeeConvert]

Originally Posted by T

Bruno Goossens is our point man for the FIE Congress.

Is there a reason that you feel France needs two votes at the FIE Congress?

[TruthSayer]

Originally Posted by T

I would seek the counsel of Jeff Bukantz

The same Jeff Bukantz who's currently subject to disciplinary action from the USFA and has (according to many sources) shown very bad judgment as a member of the US delegation at a number of Junior events?

Good choice.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Be careful how you use that tar brush!

Jeff has also (according to many sources) shown poor judgement as a member of the US delegation at Senior events, as well. Get your story straight.

[tchwojko]

Originally Posted by TruthSayer

The same Jeff Bukantz who's currently subject to disciplinary action from the USFA and has (according to many sources) shown very bad judgment as a member of the US delegation at a number of Junior events?

Good choice.

I don't know anything about the above, but in general, wouldn't poor judgement fit in very nicely with current FIE politics?

[TruthSayer]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Be careful how you use that tar brush!

Jeff has also (according to many sources) shown poor judgement as a member of the US delegation at Senior events, as well. Get your story straight.

My apologies.

That said, I'd consider the poor behavior at Junior events more serious, as he's theoretically one of the "Responsible adults" on those trips. While there are junior members on senior trips, the role Jeff plays is (theoretically) less one of chaperone.

But, yes, his reported behavior on senior trips is no better.

[Rick Shellhouse]

So how about yall two experts inform the rest of us exactly what the "accusations" against Mr Bukantz are.....concerning the junior and senior trips at least.....hear alot of mud flying around how about some backup....


not picking sides just curious....


R

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Rick Shellhouse

So how about yall two experts inform the rest of us exactly what the "accusations" against Mr Bukantz are.....concerning the junior and senior trips at least.....hear alot of mud flying around how about some backup....


not picking sides just curious....


R

As this is still an on-going disciplinary matter, maybe it's best not to.

[T]

Originally Posted by TruthSayer

My apologies.

That said, I'd consider the poor behavior at Junior events more serious, as he's theoretically one of the "Responsible adults" on those trips. While there are junior members on senior trips, the role Jeff plays is (theoretically) less one of chaperone.

But, yes, his reported behavior on senior trips is no better.

Unfortunately, we don't have to go very far to find behavior from "Responsible adults" on both junior and senior world cup/championship trips that is not appropriate. When I go into the bar at the world championships (to get a coke, of course), the bar is often full of American cadre and coaches drinking excessively. There are also incidents of 'relationships' between cadre and other coaches that goes on in public. Every evening is a cause for a party for many (not all). Is this the best example to put forward for our athletes? We hold the athletes to such high standards with the athlete code of conduct but we don't apply it to our cadre.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by T

We hold the athletes to such high standards with the athlete code of conduct but we don't apply it to our cadre.

Athlete Handbook, Chapter 17.2.

-B

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by T

We hold the athletes to such high standards with the athlete code of conduct but we don't apply it to our cadre.

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Athlete Handbook, Chapter 17.2.

-B

For those of you too lazy to go look it up, Chapter 17.2 of the Athlete Handbook is the "Non-Fencer Personnel Code of Conduct."

So, contrary to T's statement, the US actually DOES apply high standards to the cadre.

-m

[Jason]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

For those of you too lazy to go look it up, Chapter 17.2 of the Athlete Handbook is the "Non-Fencer Personnel Code of Conduct."

So, contrary to T's statement, the US actually DOES apply high standards to the cadre.

-m

Having a standard and applying it is not the same thing. Tracy's statement is in no way ignorant. I know of many incidents of adult personnel not behaving to "code" at international events. It certainly warrants consideration.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Jason

Having a standard and applying it is not the same thing. Tracy's statement is in no way ignorant. I know of many incidents of adult personnel not behaving to "code" at international events. It certainly warrants consideration.

And I know of many incidents of fencers not behaving to "code".

The implication of T's statement was that we hold the Athletes to higher standards than the rest of the cadre. We don't.

-m

[Jason]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

And I know of many incidents of fencers not behaving to "code".

The implication of T's statement was that we hold the Athletes to higher standards than the rest of the cadre. We don't.

-m

Well, I think the point was that we can't expect to be able to regulate the athlete's behavior if the adults are setting bad examples.

I can't imagine that point of her post was "I wish there was something written in Athlete Handbook about this." While it may be worthwhile to try to "catch" candidates not knowing something about USFA procedure or regulation, I don't think this is a real opportunity.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Jason

While it may be worthwhile to try to "catch" candidates not knowing something about USFA procedure or regulation, I don't think this is a real opportunity.

Just to be clear, that wasn't my intent.

Not only don't I think that's a worthwhile activity/endeavor/game/whatever, I would have made my response regardless of who had written the statement T made.

Both codes of conduct are relatively recent and came into effect at the same time.

-B

[TruthSayer]

Originally Posted by T

Unfortunately, we don't have to go very far to find behavior from "Responsible adults" on both junior and senior world cup/championship trips that is not appropriate. When I go into the bar at the world championships (to get a coke, of course), the bar is often full of American cadre and coaches drinking excessively. There are also incidents of 'relationships' between cadre and other coaches that goes on in public. Every evening is a cause for a party for many (not all). Is this the best example to put forward for our athletes?

I agree with these statements. In fact, I know of nobody who would disagree. They are quite unresponsive, though, to the underlying concern about Bukantz. If you indeed believe the above (and I have no doubt that you do), then how can you justify keeping Jeff involved in our international programs?

You also have yet to respond to the very legitimate concern raised that Bruno's loyalties in the FIE congress may be divided, as he still has a very strong connection to France.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

And I know of many incidents of fencers not behaving to "code".

The implication of T's statement was that we hold the Athletes to higher standards than the rest of the cadre. We don't.

-m

Ain't that the truth. This is a dangerous discussion for anyone to take a high ground.
At first when traveling I was pretty shocked at the behavior of the fencers but more so at the cadre. I've seen a cadre member so drunk they fall off their chair and have to be picked up and put back in the chair by the wait staff.
There is so much underage drinking on these trips it is mind boggling. There are some instances when it might be ok for an underaged person to have a bit of champagne or a celebratory drink as long as an actual parent is present.
I've seen Andrea demand to see driver's licences and personally remove alcohol from underaged kids only to have it handed back to them by another cadre member when she leaves.
I've seen people who are paid to watch the kids take off and go drink with their "friends" and not be there when the kids under their charge really need them. .
The people who actually are in charge cannot be everywhere. The way kids are monitored on some of the trips I have personally been on is horrifying.
Parents, travel with your kids. If you absolutely cannot do this, find another parent, not someone who will do it for the money but a real parent who will make sure your kid is safe.

The Momster....

[Jason]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Just to be clear, that wasn't my intent.

Not only don't I think that's a worthwhile activity/endeavor/game/whatever, I would have made my response regardless of who had written the statement T made.

Both codes of conduct are relatively recent and came into effect at the same time.

-B

I was really responding to Mike, not you. I think the Handbook reference is worth posting. The "gotcha" game can be fun, but is a distraction to this issue.

[T]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

For those of you too lazy to go look it up, Chapter 17.2 of the Athlete Handbook is the "Non-Fencer Personnel Code of Conduct."

So, contrary to T's statement, the US actually DOES apply high standards to the cadre.

-m

I did not say that the rules were not there. I stated we don't hold the cadre to the standards set (and I can provide several very specific examples but I won't). In many respects, the kids "monkey see monkey do". How can we expect to hold the fencers to standards when the cadre are busy violating them all over the place and setting bad examples?

With respect to Jeff Bukantz and consulting him with respect to FIE rules - I said I would consult him. I didn't say I would take him along on international trips. This is an FIE thread, not an international programs thread. No one can deny that he is up-to-date on rules and their implications.

With respect to Bruno and his allegiance - are you kidding (I actually didn't respond because I thought it was a joke)? Are you also concerned with notable foreigners like Henry Kissinger being involved in state politics? Perhaps we should get Joe McCarthy to do our background checks.

The USFA has many talented foreigners involved in our programs. We don't have to look too much passed our national coaches to see this. Should we also question their allegiance as well? Perhaps that last team match the USA lost was a result of one of our foreign national coaches throwing points to one of his buddy's teams (and that was a joke).

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by T

I did not say that the rules were not there. I stated we don't hold the cadre to the standards set (and I can provide several very specific examples but I won't). In many respects, the kids "monkey see monkey do". How can we expect to hold the fencers to standards when the cadre are busy violating them all over the place and setting bad examples?

With respect to Jeff Bukantz and consulting him with respect to FIE rules - I said I would consult him. I didn't say I would take him along on international trips. This is an FIE thread, not an international programs thread. No one can deny that he is up-to-date on rules and their implications.

With respect to Bruno and his allegiance - are you kidding (I actually didn't respond because I thought it was a joke)? Are you also concerned with notable foreigners like Henry Kissinger being involved in state politics? Perhaps we should get Joe McCarthy to do our background checks.

The USFA has many talented foreigners involved in our programs. We don't have to look too much passed our national coaches to see this. Should we also question their allegiance as well? Perhaps that last team match the USA lost was a result of one of our foreign national coaches throwing points to one of his buddy's teams (and that was a joke).

Tracy,

Please be more careful about your quoting. the first paragraph is in response to my post, but the next 3 are responding to posts by other people. I have posted NOTHING about Bruno's loyalties or Jeff's conduct.

-m