I understand T's frustration at how poorly Women's Epee has been run, but alienating more people, be they coaches, administrators, or former athletes, is not constructive. I wish the facts had been checked before this was posted.
Maureen Griffin
Maureen,
I have no doubt that you (and the others) are justifiably frustrated.
Was Dr. Hurley (or someone from their program) invited to participate in this meeting?
Considering that her daughters helped sweep the individual and team medals at Jr World Championships, and Kelly Hurley will be the only WE fencer representing the US at this years OG's, it only makes sense that a sincere effort would have been made to have her involved.
One wonders who started alienating who...
Last edited by Mr Epee; 05-08-2008 at 01:26 PM.
Reason: Listed the wrong Hurley headed to OG's. Thanks Wayne.
I'd be very surprised if Paul Pesthy or someone from San Antonio hadn't been invited, although it's always possible he declined.
I too would be very surprised. But, I would still like clarification on who was invited, and who participated in this meeting/gathering. It would be comforting to know that the people tasked with developing the future of the US WE program actively engaged the folks who are currently head and shoulders above the rest of the field.
Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe
Wrong Hurley... Kelly is going to Beijing, not Courtney (Though I wouldn't be surprised to see them both in London).
In late April/early May 2007, the USFA brought together a group of coaches that had youth/cadet/junior w.epee fencers in the ranking list. They brainstormed for several days (travel, food, lodging, stipend, etc., paid for by the USFA). They came up with a game plan for w.epee for the next season (which started in August 2007). Not one of those items went passed the conversation held last May. It was like the meeting never took place (although they produced a wonderful powerpoint presentation).
As a member of the group present in Colorado Springs at that meeting, I would like the part of the history lesson outlined above to reflect reality.
In March 2007, Donna Stone invited a group of coaches to meet at the OTC in Colorado Springs after the April NAC. We were there for 2 days right after the NAC (I flew in from Tucson as did a few other people), and some of the people there had to stay for other USFA meetings as well. We stayed at the OTC, which I realize costs money, but it certainly was not "travel, food, lodging" as implied above. If there were stipends to be had, I missed out. We were asked to spend two days to help make a presentation about the Women's Epee program to our USOC "sportfolio" people, and we did so.
We did produce a "wonderful Powerpoint presentation" (though I assume that is sarcasm) because that was the format we were asked to use. I was not compensated for my time, ideas, or participation. I am frustrated that the work that was started there went no further, though not as frustrated as I am by the post above, which seems to strike out at a group of coaches who tried to help out by giving of their time and expertise. T's post makes it sound as if we sat around some posh hotel for a week getting paid for "brainstorming" and designing PowerPoint screens. I would like to think that we were all there for the same reason, because we thought we could affect positive and constructive change for Women's Epee. That's why I spent those two days there instead of at my club with my fencers.
I understand T's frustration at how poorly Women's Epee has been run, but alienating more people, be they coaches, administrators, or former athletes, is not constructive. I wish the facts had been checked before this was posted.
Maureen Griffin
The only fact that may have been misrepresented was the stipend (I was told by one of the coaches that attended that there was a small stipend but I won't argue that point). That same coach told me that he traveled from his home because he went home several days after Tuscon and his travel was paid for. And when you stay at the OTC, the food is usually included in the tab. But I'm not going to argue this details - they aren't extremely relevant to the topic. I certainly didn't imply that you were lavishly paid to brainstorm or that you were paid some huge sum to participate. The comment about the money was mostly about how the USFA spends its money and time on 'process' instead of 'action'. It was not any direct attack on any coaches for their participation.
Exactly what part of that paragraph which talks about that meeting is 'lashing out' or alienating anyone? Those were pretty much the facts (again, I'm not going to argue about the stipend). Did I say it was YOUR fault or Ro's fault or Donna Stone's or anyone else's fault that nothing ever came out of that powerpoint presentation? I did not make any such accusations. I emailed Donna Stone several times to try to get information about what came out of that meeting and finally received the powerpoint by email about a month or so later. That was it. We (and other w.epee athletes on the point standings) received a couple of other very short emails about when camps might be possible and wanted our feedback about it. I assume this email came out of this meeting. There were never any additional emails about camps actually being scheduled. There was no more communication about anything of note concerning w.epee that came out of that discussion.
Since you brought it up, how about a few hypothetical questions (again, these are hypothetical because I wouldn't want to be accused of lashing out at anyone)...
1. Perhaps communication is the major problem? or
2. why does a selective group get the info and others are excluded?
3. if the w.epee program - which is funded primarily by the USOC and based primarily on international success and 2 athletes constitute virtually all (there were 4 members of the team at jr worlds so they deserve their share of the credit) of the world cup/championship medals and FIE rankings results, why aren't their coaches included in the discussions that are supposed to move the sport forward? It seems to me that success of athletes would be a pretty good indicator of the quality of program ideas.
As I mentioned above, I have held numerous camps at our house and have had 10-12 girls on air mattresses, sleeping bags, guest beds, and sofas for week-long and weekend camps. No charge at all. I would consider this as volunteering my time and energy! I can tell you that it certainly was a significant donation of $$ to the developmental w.epee program and no one paid me for my ideas or reimbursed me for the food, drinks, salle rental time, health club fees, gas, van transportation, emergency armory work, etc. If that meeting in Colorado had come to us and asked us our opinion, how we accomplished what we have, or had any true curiosity, I would have volunteered our house and knowledge in a heartbeat for the cause.
I talked with Andrea Lagan, maybe 3 or 4 months after this meeting, and she told me directly that a lot of ideas were tossed around at the meeting but frankly none of them were ever going to happen. She didn't know why they called the meeting in the first place. Perhaps that isn't an exact quote but it's pretty close.
btw, reflecting reality only reflects the reality of the person who is making the statement. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is truth or fact. Since I sit in a different place from you, my reality is somewhat different but that doesn't make it wrong.
Originally Posted by Mr Epee
Maureen,
I have no doubt that you (and the others) are justifiably frustrated.
Was Dr. Hurley (or someone from their program) invited to participate in this meeting?
Considering that her daughters helped sweep the individual and team medals at Jr World Championships, and Cortney will be the only WE fencer representing the US at this years OG's, it only makes sense that a sincere effort would have been made to have her involved.
One wonders who started alienating who...
thanks Mr. Epee (it is Kelley going to the Olympics). As I said above, no one invited us or Paul Pesthy to the meeting even though we have had the #1 and #2 ranked w.epee fencers in multiple age groups for several years. It was a total surprise to us that the meeting was taking place. I didn't learn about it until the Tuscon NAC. Considering it was a youth/Div 1 NAC and all of the coaches were there, I wondered why the meeting couldn't take place in Tuscon...but I suppose there were good reasons (and I'm not making more acusations here).
Tracy
www.usfencersforchange.com An Alternate Slate for the Executive Committee of the USFA Board of Directors
I would appreciate if someone could post the Colorado power point presentation and the follow up emails. I think it would provide more detail into the history of this issue.
I know this is a question that is probably on a lot of people's minds...if not it's on mine. T, why have you never really been involved at the national level in the USFA, yet now you're attempting to be President? One answer to this question that I keep coming to is this thread. Women's Epee is a mess. Your daughter's fence Women's Epee. To what extent is your daughter's involvement in this defunct system a reason for your candidacy?
I feel the need to respond to this timeline and add some different perspectives. I'm choosing to do so anonymously for a variety of reasons. This will clearly affect my credibility, but at this time I cannot post this in any fashion other than anonymously.
Originally Posted by T
The woman's epee program has been run exceptionally poorly (yes, I'm sure people will think I am biased but the arguments strongly support this conclusion).
This is in part true, but in large part the Women's Epee program has been shot in the foot by some of the fencers themselves.
First a little history lesson.
In June 2003, Mike Marx, was fired as the National Coach for w.epee (no reason was given that I am aware of).
He was fired over complaints from certain senior WE fencers about his coaching. These were, in my opinion, disingenuous complaints designed to get him fired in order to install their coach (Kornel) as national coach.
This was a critical time period because it was at the beginning of the Olympic qualification season. Subsequently Kornel Udivary (sp?) was named the coach primarily because he had two of the top w.epee women in the country with Kamara James and Steffi Eim. That was fine. However between the change of coaches, an important team qualifier in Australia was not officially attended by a USA team (although a few individuals attended who were down the line in points but no coach was provided). This resulted in a very poor 'team' performance (few points were acquired as a result of this). At that point (July 2003) it became virtually impossible for the USA to qualify a w.epee team for the Olympics. The FIE team point standings require a certain number of events to be held in different zones therefore because there weren't too many team events held somewhere besides Europe, this meant that the event in Australia could not be dropped. They could not have picked a worse time to change coaches. Period.
Of course, no w.epee team qualified in 2004 (Canada qualified from this zone instead). At the Olympics, Kornel was treated so poorly that he quit and wrote a huge email to everyone on his email list.
I agree with all of the above quote. Kornel was, indeed, treated very poorly.
Gary Copeland was appointed interim w.epee coach around Sep 2004 and stayed in that position until Dec 2005 (all the while the High Perf Committee indicating they were interviewing people for a permanent coaching position). After an extended application/interview/decision process (1.5 years), in Jan 2006, Paul Pesthy was appointed the w.epee coach (Gary Copeland was treated quite poorly in the whole process by the HPC). Paul, however, had the track record of coaching two of the top w.epee athletes in the country (Kelley & Courtney) and Gary Copeland had no women near the top of the sr. ranking list (or junior, as Jasmine McGlade had moved to England).
Gary Copeland was, indeed, treated very poorly, in no small part due to the agitations of one Tracy Hurley to get her daughters' personal coach installed as National coach.
Jim Page was soon hired as the Director of High Performance and announced that life would be getting better for w.epee and he said that it would become more stable. However, Jim Page (or the HPC - it is hard to tell who actually had the power to make decision) was interested in only junior and cadet fencers and felt that those that were true seniors (e.g., Maya Lawrence, Lacey Burt, and Lindsay Campbell) were not to be given any attention. Paul constantly fought hard for the true seniors to be included and to provide them funding but the HPC refused to approve a budget that included senior funding (camps and world cup trips). The powers within the HPC and possibly elsewhere on the Youth Committee (but that would only be reporting rumors on my part) wanted the budget to be spent almost exclusively on developmental programs. Paul refused and subsequently was fired in the Fall of 2006. Paul's argument was that the National Coach should be charged with developing the national team as it prepares for the Olympics and world championships and the developmental function should be the job of an assistant coach or co-coach (such as a couple of other weapons have).
The idea that Paul Pesthy was fired because of his advocacy for senior WE fencers such as Maya, Lacey, and Lindsay is quite frankly laughable. Paul's advocacy as National coach was for exactly two fencers: Kelly and Courtney Hurley.
I have no direct knowledge about the last few paragraphs of the timeline, so I will not comment on those.
As I said above, no one invited us or Paul Pesthy to the meeting even though we have had the #1 and #2 ranked w.epee fencers in multiple age groups for several years. It was a total surprise to us that the meeting was taking place.
This is amazingly absurd.
This is roughly on par with a mid-90's WF meeting that failed to include input from Buckie Leach and the Rochester Girls.
Gary Copeland was, indeed, treated very poorly, in no small part due to the agitations of one Tracy Hurley to get her daughters' personal coach installed as National coach.
The idea that Paul Pesthy was fired because of his advocacy for senior WE fencers such as Maya, Lacey, and Lindsay is quite frankly laughable. Paul's advocacy as National coach was for exactly two fencers: Kelly and Courtney Hurley.
I have no direct knowledge about the last few paragraphs of the timeline, so I will not comment on those.
This is ridiculous. I never did anything to agitate or anything to the contrary. If you heard that, it wasn't from me. Talk about fact checking...
Gary Copeland was the INTERIM coach for 1.5 years. I had absolutely nothing to do with any decision about hiring the PERMANENT w.epee coach or the w.epee program during that time. In the summer of 2005, The HPC put out an announcement that they were looking for a national coach for w.epee. Paul and Gary (and maybe others) applied for it. I was not on the committee to make that decision and my input was not requested. I assume the HPC looked at all candidates, what successes they brought to the table (he was also 5 time national champion), and made the decision to hire Paul as the permanent coach . That was strictly the HPC decision as far as I know (and I think most everyone will confirm that they don't exactly seek the opinion of others).
Concerning Paul Pesthy, he has been a solid contributor to the fencing community and for his work with w.epee during that year, he received nothing but grief. I know for a fact that he went to bat for Maya, Lacey, and Lindsay on several occasions concerning funding and travel. He felt that the seniors deserved support. Below is the letter that Paul sent to Jim Page and the HPC in an email dated Jan 4, 2007 after he was fired. You can read for yourself what Paul had to say about the situation.
To the Athletes and the High Performance Committee,
I am compelled to respond to Mr. Jim Page’s letter to the athletes explaining his motives in dismissing me as the National Coach for women’s epee. His letter is testimony to his lack of understanding of our sport. He also presents only one side of the facts and arrives at strange conclusions. In addition, he offers a “new and better” program that does not focus on salient issues but promises everything for everyone that ultimately leads to nowhere.
He states that his first and foremost concern is that “key coaches across the US have not had confidence in our program and are not working together with us to build a strong international program.” Quite to the contrary, the coaches considered productive and important for our competitive international success, Jim Carpenter, Andrey Geva, Kornel Udvarhelyi, were unaware of Mr. Page’s decision to dismiss me. (I also consider Michael Marx as a “key coach”, but I know that he was well informed of the situation). Those coaches were informed and agreed with my plan that focused on the senior team. Mr. Page also states that the plan lacked the initiative to build a better base of competitive athletes. He has failed to realize that nine of the top fourteen fencers on the National Ranking List are cadet and junior age fencers. Development of a domestic base is not the main challenge, but keeping talented fencers in the sport by providing them with the opportunity to succeed on the international level is the issue here.
Mr. Page states that “Additionally, we instituted a system to evaluate our effectiveness as an organization and the quality of our cadre leadership.” I had the opportunity to complete one of those surveys. As Mr. Page states that my numbers were lower than others on the team. (I am sure that Bobby Knight’s scores would have been lower than mine). I must admit that I really feel badly about not winning that popularity contest. However, Mr. Page’s conclusion: “That’s an indication that those commenting have little confidence in his ability to manage the team in that environment” is irresponsible and lacking empirical input. I would think that the top five out of six athletes would not request my reinstatement if they did not have confidence in my ability to manage them.
It is true that we have not achieved our goals at the 2006 World Championships, but we have learned much last year and achieved some unprecedented and encouraging results. Our team finished 5th, the highest ever, at the Nanjing Grand Prix competition and lost in an overtime match to the World Champion French team. Courtney Hurley is currently 18th on the senior World rankings. Our top athletes took part in high level international competitions. They had learned to work together and to deal with the pressures of competition. I have also learned much about our top athletes. I know how they respond well to my coaching and some of them are better team fencers than others ranked higher on the individual competition.
Unfortunately, the USFA places people in powerful position who lack the necessary understanding of our sport as well as the demands of international competition. Neither Jim Page, High Performance Director, nor Andrea Lagan, Director of Sport Performance, has the background or qualifications to evaluate our programs and our National Coaches. Their ideas of creating a feel good environment with everyone involved, reciting empty promises “of national development” and “building a better base” will not lead to better international performance.
It is disappointing that some of you on the High Performance Committee having experienced the neglect of this organization when you reached the height of your fencing career and needed a little support to continue and succeed on the international level, are willing to follow such unsuccessful path. It is also disturbing that the USFA aspires to international success as its primary mission goal, although with its multi millions dollar budget is still unable to fund its National Team and depends on the USOC’s charity.
I encourage you to save this letter. It should not serve to vindicate me, but to remind you six years from now not take the same old dead-end road.
Notwithstanding the personal and financial sacrifices I had made during the year, it was my pleasure and privilege to serve the athletes, and I wish them well in the future.
Paul K. Pesthy
I am also attaching a letter sent by Maya Lawrence to the HPC which is dated Dec 14, 2006 (before Paul's letter to the HPC) which reqested his reinstatement as w.epee national coach. I don't think she would have sent the letter if she didn't think that Paul was trying to act with the Sr. Team's best interest in mind.
Tracy
www.usfencersforchange.com An Alternate Slate for the Executive Committee of the USFA Board of Directors
I know this is a question that is probably on a lot of people's minds...if not it's on mine. T, why have you never really been involved at the national level in the USFA, yet now you're attempting to be President? One answer to this question that I keep coming to is this thread. Women's Epee is a mess. Your daughter's fence Women's Epee. To what extent is your daughter's involvement in this defunct system a reason for your candidacy?
I know this is a question that is probably on a lot of people's minds...if not it's on mine. T, why have you never really been involved at the national level in the USFA, yet now you're attempting to be President? One answer to this question that I keep coming to is this thread. Women's Epee is a mess. Your daughter's fence Women's Epee. To what extent is your daughter's involvement in this defunct system a reason for your candidacy?
I too would like to know the answer to both of the highlighted questions.
Also, has anyone here been to any of the camps that Mrs. Hurley has hosted? If so what did you do?
Last edited by gorgie101; 05-08-2008 at 05:27 PM.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.-Galileo Galilei
Also, has anyone here been to any of the camps that Mrs. Hurley has hosted? If so what did you do?
I have been to several. Indeed, they were free of charge and free room, board, and transportation were provided if you needed it. We did group footwork/conditioning, and lots and lots of bouting. Now that is a really good deal, even more so if you are within driving distance. I think it is a great idea and I wish there were more of them. It is a lot to ask of the host(s), but really everyone benefits.
Ahhh, I see the agitators have arrived. You do realize this is not the "Why does T suck" thread, don't you?
Instead of you all demanding answers from T, I'd like to see some of you answer the original question: how does Ro's plan compare to T's plan? Which one is better for WE?
Also, in the spirit of fair play for both sides, I'd like Ro to answer why nothing was done with the plans/ideas generated at the meeting? Why is this VP term going to be any different from the last?
I've looked at both plans. While I'm not an epeeist, some of my friends are, and I'm sick of them griping at me. Let's get this problem fixed.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
Also, has anyone here been to any of the camps that Mrs. Hurley has hosted? If so what did you do?
Yes, we have. I will give you my point of view of the Hurley camp we had our daughter attend in the summer of 06. We had been struggling with how to get her to the next level. She had at that point started to perform well within her age group, and even started placing well in some of the cadet events. There was no play book on how to do this that we knew of. Keep in mind we come from a fencing black hole where no one has ever had any national success. We also knew nothing of the politics or pecking order within the USFA. The lack of information from the USFA and the lack of support for WE meant nothing to us because we just did not know any better.
The camp was a week long. It was run by Paul Pesthy, Bob and Tracey Hurley, the Hurley sisters, and others. It encompassed all things epee - how to warm up, tactics, drills, conditioning, mission bouts, strategies, mental preparation, fencing videos, tournament preparation, to name a few. During free time, my daughter got to know Bob. If any of you know Bob, he is an epee evangelist and my daughter soaked up his preaching. He has a way of working almost any life lesson into epee strategies and tactics. My daughter came back from this camp a changed fencer. I give her coach a great amount of credit for recognizing and developing our daughter’s talent, but I must also give the Hurley’s a great amount of credit for thrusting her into that next level we were trying to get to. After that camp, our daughter had a tremendous streak that surprised everybody around her. In the very next NAC that she attended she made it to the cadet gold medal bout with Courtney. During and after the camp we developed a friendship with the Hurley’s that continues to this day. At every tournament from then until to now, they have shown a personal interest in our daughter and continually give her advice and support. Do they do this for everybody they meet? I do not know, but outside of her coach they are the single biggest factor in her development to date. Please don’t take this as a campaign ad for Tracey; it is simply what has happened as a result in part to that camp. She’s also been invited to attend the camps organized by Paul Pesthy, and we’ve made every effort to get her to them because the quality of bouting is superior to what we can get locally.
Now, after reading this you may think we idolize the Hurley’s and are in some way star struck. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Before the camp, we had no idea who they were! We have found them to be very friendly and willing to go above and beyond to help us learn.
Thanks for the responses to my question about the fencing Camps.
Mrs. Hurley was using them as part of her experience and I wanted to know what they were all about. I am now more informed. Thank you.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.-Galileo Galilei
I know this is a question that is probably on a lot of people's minds...if not it's on mine. T, why have you never really been involved at the national level in the USFA, yet now you're attempting to be President? One answer to this question that I keep coming to is this thread. Women's Epee is a mess. Your daughter's fence Women's Epee. To what extent is your daughter's involvement in this defunct system a reason for your candidacy?
Yes, w.epee is a mess.
I have never really been involved at the national level before because I was busy working 3 jobs (1 full-time; 2 parttime) to fund my kids' travels around the world (with my husband as their strategy coach traveling with them). Add that to the coaching that I was doing many nights and weekends, traveling to NACs, my own fencing, and all of the time I spent figuring out the logistics and making travel arrangements for world cup trips (which often lasted 1-3 months) there wasn't a great deal of time left to get involved at the national level. During many school breaks (I teach college) we would host w.epee camps (I see a few testimonials as to the quality of these camps so for you skeptics out there, I suppose this means that I wasn't lying).
Is this defunct system a reason why I am running for President?
IMHO this "defunct system" is a reflection of how the USFA operates in general and is a symptom of larger organizational problems. I have been involved with USfencing for 30 years and while the level and size of competitions have grown tremendously and some things have improved, what has not improved since then is how the fencers are treated. Unfortunately, in my experience, the fencers and their parents (and many coaches) are treated as an 'inconvenience' rather than as a customer.
As I discussed the possibility of running for president with other fencers, parents, and coaches, there was a clear consensus from most everyone that I should do it because someone needed to bring some business sense and customer service to the organization.
So I decided to run for President to try to bring no-nonsense, business-based, real, substantial, and positive changes to the organization. I then set out to recruit candidates that had the specific skills I thought were needed to move the organization forward on all fronts. These candidates had similar experiences as the ones I described above and also felt that positive changes were needed.
Tracy
www.usfencersforchange.com An Alternate Slate for the Executive Committee of the USFA Board of Directors
So I decided to run for President to try to bring no-nonsense, business-based, real, substantial, and positive changes to the organization. I then set out to recruit candidates that had the specific skills I thought were needed to move the organization forward on all fronts. These candidates had similar experiences as the ones I described above and also felt that positive changes were needed.
Thanks for the reply to the WE question.
Since you are no longer posting in the thread where I asked this question and it applies to that statement I was wondering if you could answer it here.
Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC
]I would say my largest concern of the USFFC slate is Ms. Pestotnik. Cash flow seems to be the most necessary issue for the upcoming group of officers to address, so the qualifications of the Treasurer candidates should be scrutinized. Managing the finances of a fencing club and a 50 person business strikes me as very low watermark of experience for somebody who endeavors to control and guide the finances of a national governing body.
Mr. Dilworth has experience managing finances on a national and global scale, and both an MBA and BS in Economics. What sort of degree does Ms. Pestotnik have? Does she have any advanced financial education? It's not that I have anything against the FFC slate or Ms. Pestotnik, the reasons I'm so concerned is that Mr. Dilworth seems so much more qualified for the position that should be held in the highest regard in this upcoming election.
Since you are no longer posting in the thread where I asked this question and it applies to that statement I was wondering if you could answer it here.
No. This is the women's epee thread. Please start a new thread for this question. Thank you.
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity
No. This is the women's epee thread. Please start a new thread for this question. Thank you.
Well I asked it in another thread....it wasn't answered. So I'm asking in a thread in which T is participating in. You want me to start a thread just to ask this one question?
Also....thank you for being such a great moderator...oh, wait.
Originally Posted by mgriffin
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