A violent demise

[Swordsman]

People say chivalry's dead (though we know it's not here in Arconia). This, however, implies that it died, a natural death. In truth, however, it was brutally murdered by the hyper-feminists of the world!

Case in point: The other day (Thurdsay of Friday last?) I was at lunch, just finished. Usually none of my friends share my lunch hour, so I was just keeping to myself at the table at which I happened to be seated. My girlfriend, however, got out of gym early, and decided to drop by the lunchroom and say hi. Which I was very glad for, as I barely get to see her during the day.

Well, seats are always in demand at lunch; there are simply more students than chairs. So naturally I stood and motioned for her to sit in the seat I'd just vacated. She just kept talking. I figured she probably just hadn't caught the gesture, so when I had a chance I told her she could sit. She said that I had been there first, so I shouldn't have to stand - not seeming to understand the point that she is my lady, and therefore has priority. I told her I'd stand anyway, and it was no imposition whatsoever for her to take the seat.

So what did she do? She sat on the table! For the simple principle of the matter, she still refused the seat and sat on the table. I will admit I did take the chair back at that point, because it was pointless not to.

But what I'm driving at: Chivalry's been murdered!

(No offense meant to advocates of equal rights, wages, or anything else like that for women. You're perfectly sane, and simply want what should be automatically allotted you. It's the hyper-feminists who bug me! RESPECT, not DISrespect, is intended when we do things like hold doors, pull out chairs, etc. for you!)

[Zelda]

Sword, you are probably one of a dying breed. I have found a few at my halls for some reason....chiverlous to the max. Its not dead, just hiding.

[Swordsman]

Dying? Being killed off, I tell you!

[Zelda]

Its only cause kids your age aint generally taught the finer points of ettiquette now days kiddo. You are truely a unique person....older people and those who have have had the proper British public school ed seem to still have it (well thats my observations anyhow!)

[Fencing Angel]

ya.. i know what you're talking about... Everytime i hold a door for somone.. (i.e. Friend, Parents etc...) people look at me like i'm some sort of Child Slave or somthing.. like you said..
"Chivalry's been murdered!"

It's a valid point.. But i think that zelda is also right in saying that "its hiding" Because those of us who practice chivalry and have gotten the "cold shoulder", or whatever, just Hide it away and bring it out when they know people will respect it for what it is.

Truthfully i think most people see it as you're saying, "i think that i should open this door for you, because you don't think that i can." i've seen this kind of thinking more then once, mostly in Teenage girls. No Offense ment to those of you who DON'T think that way.. but it's most common there.
And i happen to know some people who see it as a sign of respect. i know that i was brought up in with Chivraly in our family, and now its just a habbit. But sometimes it is really hard to understand why some people out there don't see it for what it really is.

Oh well.. I think i've added my two cents about four times over..

[Keira]

I sure wish there were more guys like you over here! I'm always amazed to actually find a guy who'll open a door for me, I think it's a very nice gesture. Now it's the guys that explain things to you like you have no more intelligence than a rock, er, sorry about that Meekal, a, uh, tree, there, that works. You guys definitely teach this to your kids (if and when you have any)
Some of us really appreciate it!!

[Iwant2bafencer]

I'm definatly in full agreement with Keira! I love it when a guy holds a door open for more, give up their chair (that was cool of you Swords), and (it's Very rare) pulls a chair out for me! I find it quite flattering! The guy I like (Keira you know who he is.) always opens doors, pulls chairs, vacates seats, and is the coolest gentleman! It's a rare breed, and I hope everyone does their part to keep what's left of it alive.

--------------------
Carpe Diem

[Swordsman]

I'm just doing what I can. I stand by the old "do unto others". That's just my excuse...

[Iwant2bafencer]

and it's a very good one at that!

------------------
Carpe Diem

[lochinvar]

Okay, in the interest of being the Devil’s Advocate (since under our Constitution even the Devil is entitled to due process and legal representation), let’s take a slightly different view of the issue.

You seem miffed that out of principle she wouldn’t take the chair … yet it was out of principle that you offered it to her. Whose principle takes priority, here – yours because you operate from one worldview, or hers because she operates from a different worldview? You saw it as an act of kindness, respect, and courtesy, but how did she see it?

This is not to imply criticism either of your actions or your motives, both of which I find commendable. Rather, it is meant to illuminate a philosophical point. The following story will act as illustration.

As an adult, I used to visit my mother regularly for breakfast. Until the day she died, she absolutely insisted on buttering my toast, even when I was in my 30’s. I know she did it out of affection, a small demonstration of her devotion and fondness for me. I even found it endearing when I was younger.

However, as I aged it started to grate, though I forbore from ever mentioning it. She went to her grave never knowing how much I grew to loathe that small token act of indulgence on her part, dependence on mine.

Did she think me incompetent to manage the simple act of buttering a piece of toast? Was I such a simpleton that I needed a keeper? Should I also have allowed her to cut the crusts off my sandwiches, put my milk in a covered cup, perhaps tie a bib around my neck?

The simple fact is that “being taken care of” is antithetical to one’s sense of independence. We allow it in the people we care for because it makes them feel good to do for us. We even seek it at times and in situations when we want a little reinforcement and validation that someone cares for us, is thinking about us.

But there comes a point when it starts to challenge one’s self-worth, one’s confidence in being able to do for oneself, and that point is peculiar to each individual. To use a purely male metaphor, chivalry is emasculating in its effect if not in its intent, and the result of our chivalric actions doesn’t always feel good to the recipient regardless of what motivates us in performing them.

I was raised in a different era, when the rules of ettiquette and courtesy were far different than they are now. A gentleman automatically takes the outside position next to traffic if a man and woman are walking together on the street. A gentleman always removes his hat indoors. A gentleman stands when a lady leaves the table. A gentleman opens a lady’s car door first before going around to get behind the wheel. Etc., etc.

The spirit of the new times is self-sufficiency; we trumpet the idea that people (including women) should be responsible for their own actions, stand on their own feet, be able to make their own way in the world without leaning on others. Independence and competence are glorified, dependence and helplessness are villified.

I would be the last to say that these emerging trends are bad, but they do raise a problem: How does this new tenor fit with waiting for someone to hold your coat instead of putting it on yourself, waiting for them to open a door instead of opening it yourself, etc.? The melding of the two cultures is problematic, and the result is far from clean.

I have always felt that the intent of chivalry as a guide to action is to show the woman that you care for and think about her. One holds doors, coats, chairs and the like as a mark of respect and affection, to show her that you are thinking of her well-being and comfort. As long as it is accepted in the same vein in which it is offered, all is well. But if the focus becomes an insistance on my action rather than the nature of her reaction, then it has degenerated from chivalry into mere dogmatism.

Many of the customs I grew up with are now seen as quaint and unnecessary (and indeed many of them are both), yet I still feel uncomfortable walking on the inside, or remaining seated when a lady leaves or arrives at the table.

But I must take the sensibilities of the lady into account always, or else my comfort level becomes paramount, not hers. As men we should continue to offer these small services and acts of kindness, but we should not insist upon them nor take it personally if they are declined. The feelings and preferences of the lady should take precedence always; that, in my opinion, is the true spirit of chivalry.

[I’m getting down off the soapbox, now; feel free to throw tomatoes if you wish.]


[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: lochinvar ]</p>

[Zelda]

Loch, I enjoyed your soapbox...however I hate to say that alot of what your are talking about is a matter of breeding and teaching of the parents to their children. I am sure Sword and those like him did not instinctively know to give up a chair for a lady, they were taught it. Its a hereditary thing (according to me anyows!)

[lochinvar]

Zelda, I agree with you on that point...but that wasn't the kernal--or at least not the one I perceived--of his anecdote.

My understanding of his argument was that chivalry was dying not because it wasn't being taught as a behaviour, but because that behavior was no longer being acknowledged or accepted by its purported beneficiaries, i.e. women.

That's another kettle of fish, altogether.

[Swordsman]

Loch, you are a truly perceptive, intelligent, and eloquent individual. You're also quite enjoyable to debate with; thank you for your soapbox.

First, I will clarify the point: She's just not used to it. She is used to having to run out in the rain and mud and get something out of the car for him. She does appreciate the gestures, and later apologized for the mentioned incident.

However: Your point is still EXCELLENT. It's something that never quite occurred to me (that courtesy could be taken too far), and I'm very glad that it was brought to my attention. I don't think I've reached that point, or that I ever would - but now I know I won't.

Lochinvar, I salute thee.

[Zelda]

Loch very true, but being taught how to react to Chivalry is also a dying art.

[Jeeves]

Having been continuosly happily married for the past twenty plus years, I can tell you that opening doors etc. has been a key to that happiness. It's the small nice day to day things like opening car doors or warming up her car on a cold winter day before she leaves for work, that are the chivalry part of the glue that makes two people a couple.
If it isn't taught, and it isn't expected, then you could say it may be dying.
However chivalry is alive and well here in the mid-west.

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Jeeves ]</p>

[lochinvar]

[quote]Originally posted by Swordsman:
<strong>Loch...You're also quite enjoyable to debate with...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you for the kind words, Sword.

I don't know as I'd call it a debate, however, since we didn't take opposite sides of the issue. In many respects, in fact, I agree with you.

I think I'd rather characterize it a serious discussion. I didn't set out to refute a position; I only wanted to turn the question so that a new face could be examined in the light.

[Swordsman]

Again, true. Whether discussion or debate or another matter entirely, it is enjoyable.

[Rayen]

After reading this, I feel I must defend myself here. Feel free to knock me off Loch's soapbox whenever you get the urge.

It's not the fact that I think that chivalry is a terrible thing to have and practice. It's not even that I mind it, or that I'm malicious enough to spit it back in the man's face. It's a commonly held fact that I am far too independent for my own good at times. Swordsman knows this (Or at least he should by now). Half of the time I run around like a chicken with my head cut off just cleaning up after other people. Swords also knows this.

So the fact that I refused to take his chair really shouldn't be so surprising to him. I’m not one to be coddled, even if I appreciate the gesture. I’m too independent to take somebody else’s seat while they have to go trekking across the cafeteria and battle lions, flame pits, sure death, and lunch ladies to get another one. Especially when there’s a perfectly good, clean table-top to park it on. I saw no need to take his chair at the time.

Swordsman, it was a sweet gesture. I appreciate it and everything, but I’m me. It’s not in my nature to let somebody take care of me. Even you. Sorry.

[lochinvar]

[quote]Originally posted by Rayen:
<strong>I’m not one to be coddled, even if I appreciate the gesture...
Swordsman, it was a sweet gesture. I appreciate it and everything, but I’m me. It’s not in my nature to let somebody take care of me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I rest my case.

[Swordsman]

Parry, counter-attack, continuation. Point left, Lochinvar!