Stretching and Performance

[the ancient one]

I know that stretching is a dearly-loved ritual for many fencers and coaches, but as a Vet I often wonder if I am just creating more micro-traumas to recover from and whether or not there is really a performance benefit.

I don't like any paper that draws conclusions from a sample size of 16, but nevertheless....Anyone care to comment on the abstract below?



Effect of Acute Static Stretching on Force, Balance, Reaction Time, and Movement Time.

APPLIED SCIENCES
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 36(8):1397-1402, August 2004.
BEHM, DAVID G.; BAMBURY, ANDREW; CAHILL, FARRELL; POWER, KEVIN

Abstract:
BEHM, D. G., A. BAMBURY, F. CAHILL, and K. POWER. Effect of Acute Static Stretching on Force, Balance, Reaction Time, and Movement Time. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 36, No. 8, pp. 1397-1402, 2004.

Purpose: The purpose of the study was to investigate the effect of an acute bout of lower limb static stretching on balance, proprioception, reaction, and movement time.

Methods: Sixteen subjects were tested before and after both a static stretching of the quadriceps, hamstrings, and plantar flexors or a similar duration control condition. The stretching protocol involved a 5-min cycle warm-up followed by three stretches to the point of discomfort of 45 s each with 15-s rest periods for each muscle group. Measurements included maximal voluntary isometric contraction (MVC) force of the leg extensors, static balance using a computerized wobble board, reaction and movement time of the dominant lower limb, and the ability to match 30% and 50% MVC forces with and without visual feedback.

Results: There were no significant differences in the decrease in MVC between the stretch and control conditions or in the ability to match submaximal forces. However, there was a significant (P < 0.009) decrease in balance scores with the stretch ([down arrow] 9.2%) compared with the control ([up arrow] 17.3%) condition. Similarly, decreases in reaction (5.8%) and movement (5.7%) time with the control condition differed significantly (P < 0.01) from the stretch-induced increases of 4.0% and 1.9%, respectively.

Conclusion: In conclusion, it appears that an acute bout of stretching impaired the warm-up effect achieved under control conditions with balance and reaction/movement time.

(C)2004The American College of Sports Medicine

[Hauptman]

I read that report, and I would say that we have way too small a sample size to generalize any results. I would also suggest that stretching has different uses/benefits for different people.

My personal experience has found stretching to be essential, but not for the typically stated reasons. My muscles and connecting tissue tend to contract and tighten over time which results in limited range of motion and joint problems. So for me, stretching is important after excercise and between sessions to keep my connective tissue loose; it has nothing to do with stretching before excercise to prevent injury or improve performance.

[Cookeit]

Well, one of my gym teachers (who is also a basketball/soccer coach, and quite a good athlete) is quite against stretching. He would tell us not to stretch before class.

Personally, I feel like my body is too loose if I stretch before a tournament, and I feel like I can't wake up.

I like to think of my un-stretched legs as tight, loaded springs, ready to pounce.

haha.

But stretching mainly affects you psychologically IMO.

[jessicasimpson]

Just don't do static stretches before you fence. Do a Dynamic warm up, jogging, jumping, sprinting. Stretching should be a seperate unit of your training, and you should use Active Issolated Stretching.
Longer muscle bellies will contract faster with more force. ie. more speed and power in your fencing. the greater your range of motion, the less likely you will get injured, the faster your body can recover from workouts.

[finnfence]

I had a coach who was a former top-level fencer and a physical therapist. As far as I recall, he said it's very important to warm up properly to get the joints well-lubricated, and thatt people who don't do this are going to pay for it later. I can confirm that in my case he's right - I'm paying for not taking his advice for several years. There are a bunch of different ways to warm up. Personally, what works for me is to stretch to wake up my muscles a bit so I don't get cramps and injuries, then jog until lightly sweaty and/or do around 10 sun salutes (astanga yoga style). Then I do a bunch of stretches which remind my body that there are other positions to be in than sitting and typing mode - backward stretches, loosening up the shoulders and loosening up my hip flexors and psoas muscles. The stretches get repeated after practice, too. If I don't, then what happens is that I come from the office sort of tight and curled up, the fencing exacerbates it, I go back to the office and get even tighter and more curled up, and round and round it goes until I start noticing that I can't execute fencing moves very well anymore, my lower back is getting yanked on by the psoas from inside (ouch!), my tight quads are starting to pull my patellas off track (double ouch!), my shoulders and neck strart getting stuck in Igor mode, and I can't open my weapon hand fully any more...and eventually I start getting a trigger finger (painful and very stupid looking...have you ever gone to shake a client's hand and had to open your own hand manually because you've been carrying a laptop case and your trigger finger got stuck?). Maybe stretching isn't necessary for younger people and those with jobs where there's more variety of movement, but for me, spending hours and hours still in a chair clicking away on the computer, it's really something I have to do or else. Incidentally, if I do some yoga after training as my stretch and finish with the lying-on-your-back-fully-relaxed bit that yoga classes do generally end with, I find I have a lot less trouble with sore muscles the next day. Dunno why...

[FreshPrinceofEWU]

I've heard that cold stretching is bad for you so I always make sure to warm up a little bit before I do. Even after i'm warm I usually try not to do to much stretching until i'm finished with my fencing. For some reason I tend to feel out of sorts and I can't move my legs the way I want to if I stretch beforehand.

[AdamH]

Personal preference, no recommendations or advice will follow.

pre-fencing
Warm up: yes.
Static stretching: only groin and flank.

Have found those 30+ second static stretches to quads/calves/triceps just slow me down, lose explosive power.

post-fencing
static-stretching: Right-handed so especially lots of stretching of right quad and left calf, feel better the next day than if not.

[rudd]

Repeat after me stretching is not warming up, stretching is not warming up. The preferred approach in most sports at the moment appears to be.

General warmup, that is something that raises the heart rate and gets the blood flowing e.g. jogging about.
Dynamic flexibility and joint mobility. If this is carried out a a fast enough pace it can replace the general warmup.
Sports specific warmup. lunges foortwork etc.

I also remember reading that there is now a move to include SMR on a foam roller and static stretching prior to the dynamic flexibility. While static stretching supposedly reduces force reduction the affect apparently only last about 15 minutes. Doing the dynamic stretching after the passive supposedly alleviates this affect.

Stretching can also have a calming affect and can become part of a pre competition ritual. Both a good reasons to keep it in.

So a little static stretching of the inhibitory muscles e.g. hip flexors, adductors may be a good thing for some people. However 30 minutes of deep stretches prior to fencing is not ideal.

[freerider258]

Sorry to throw in a question, but...

Do you fence better fencing your first couple bouts, or fence better arfter about an hour or so of fencing?

Anyway, what I'm looking for is when do you hit your peak of fencing mastery in a given night at the club, or wherever you fence. A graph would be pretty cool to compare mastery and skill to duration of fencing.
I feel when I am tired, or slightly tired, I fence better just because my body isn't going through the "breaking a sweat stage" or the "loosening of muscles" stage. Once my body is totally lose and I am sweating, 9such as a car getting up to highway speeds" I can relax a bit and fence more efficiently.

Thanks

[finnfence]

So a little static stretching of the inhibitory muscles e.g. hip flexors, adductors may be a good thing for some people. However 30 minutes of deep stretches prior to fencing is not ideal.

Good point. Reminds me that my physical therapist coach also told me not to go fencing after a Feldenkrais or PT session and probably not right after yoga, either. He said that a) the violent activity of fencing would undo all the learning the muscles got out of the preceding session and b) when you're all flip-floppy and more flexible than usual, you can easily hurt yourself. And come to think of it, he was right. Every time I trained hard after a limp-noodle PT or Feldenkrais session, or long session of hatha yoga, I'd feel great while I was fencing but then realize later I'd overstretched something and injured myself. Usually it was pretty minor, but occasionally it was something that took a few weeks to stop twinging.

[kuroutesshin]

Our teams warm up fairly heavily before we fence, mostly for conditioning to prepare us for collegiate meets. However, as a rule of thumb our coach emeritus never does anything more than light fencing for warmups- advance/retreats, etc.

He was trained by Maestro Charles Schmitter back in the day, and is of the school that warming up doesn't really help you fence, and if you are working so very hard that you have to strain a muscle you're obviously doing it wrong.

Because I have some hereditary leg/knee problems, I need to stretch my lunge much more than normal. I suppose the rule of thumb would be "not too much, unless you require it."

[fatfencer]

What does stretching actually accomplish. Earlier in the thread someone pointed out rather astutely that stretching is NOT the same as warming up though it can be a part of.

IMHO, what stretching does is release antagonistic tension in the muscles. However stretching as an exercise ismore a long term thing, whcih if kept up will have results!! Bruce Lee is a big fan of stretching to reduce antagonistic tension so you can be faster.... stretching biceps so triceps can extend faster... etc.

I find that some light running and jumping jacks followed by some light stretching is great pre-tournament.

During the weeks up to it I will do lots more stretching to avoid systemic tightening of the body. For example if your legs get really tight your lower back will suffer MUCH!!!

I stretch glutes, hams and quads in that order. When I do that my posture is much better fencing.

If anyone is worried about micro-trauma then they are doing balistic/dynamic stretches too soon before warming up and not often enough to get any benefit.

FF

[Inquartata]

The study echoes others which have found about the same thing.

And yet everyone is willing to ignore the findings because it is cognitively dissonant to a cherished routine, and sturdily step forward to defend the practice.

You people are seriously inconsistent. Elsewhere you are willing to adopt practices which offer, with zero evidence, an infinitesimal performance increase---yelling, blade canting, carb loading---and yet here's one which actually seems to offer the possibility of a small performance increase, and you turn up your noses at it, and dream up rationalizations to explain why!

[HDG]

The study echoes others which have found about the same thing.

And yet everyone is willing to ignore the findings because it is cognitively dissonant to a cherished routine, and sturdily step forward to defend the practice.

You people are seriously inconsistent. Elsewhere you are willing to adopt practices which offer, with zero evidence, an infinitesimal performance increase---yelling, blade canting, carb loading---and yet here's one which actually seems to offer the possibility of a small performance increase, and you turn up your noses at it, and dream up rationalizations to explain why!

Extra cranky tonight

[finnfence]

The study echoes others which have found about the same thing.

And yet everyone is willing to ignore the findings because it is cognitively dissonant to a cherished routine, and sturdily step forward to defend the practice.

Can't speak to studies, just to what happens to my own body if I don't stretch. Warming up and cooling down are very, very important for me, yes, but so is stretching, I guess for the reason FF stated - all I know is, I end up gradually curling up into a tight and uncomfortable little ball of strong but rigid muscle if I don't do it.

[darius]

I don't think anybody here is suggesting that a complete warm-up routine shouldn't exist, merely that STATIC stretching decreases power output.

Personally, I favor a dynamic mobility routine which gets the major muscle groups active and working through the range of motion that they'll need for practice/lesson/competition. I will do a targeted static stretch if something feels extra-tight, however.

Static stretching comes into play after the workout.

Oh, and Inq, you need to bone up on your Pubmed : "An experiment with several different handle angles was conducted to analyze the effect on performance. Analysis showed an angle of 18 degrees to 21 degrees provided best overall performance in fencing." - Optimal handle angle of the fencing foil for improved performance.

darius

[Inquartata]

I'd prefer Club Med, myself.

Yeah, you're doing warm-up lunges, you're making warm-up extensions and cuts, guess what? You're stretching.

But simply contorting yourself into various positions from the Kama Sutra is something else again.

Apparently, though, Finnfence is the single exception. Perhaps he's an alien, whose muscle fiber differs significantly from our human variety.

[fatfencer]

I don't think anybody here is suggesting that a complete warm-up routine shouldn't exist, merely that STATIC stretching decreases power output.

Personally, I favor a dynamic mobility routine which gets the major muscle groups active and working through the range of motion that they'll need for practice/lesson/competition. I will do a targeted static stretch if something feels extra-tight, however.

Static stretching comes into play after the workout.

Oh, and Inq, you need to bone up on your Pubmed : "An experiment with several different handle angles was conducted to analyze the effect on performance. Analysis showed an angle of 18 degrees to 21 degrees provided best overall performance in fencing." - Optimal handle angle of the fencing foil for improved performance.

darius

Surely you jest?? If not ok, so you cant downward 20 degrees... how bout in?

FF

[Inquartata]

Cant be done.

[Timberwolf_CY]

I absolutely must stretch before I undertake almost any fencing activity whatsoever. The few times I didn't stretch before practice or a tournament, I was sore for weeks. And I don't mean just "in pain" I mean like, "went to the doctor, 'Son, you've pulled all your quadriceps and hamstrings.'" So yeah, stretching every time, multiple ways. Jog if possible, but not a priority.